[mSH] Squig Armor question regarding armor debuffs?

[leftayparxoun]

Ok, great information.

Last question,

Assuming Armor Penetration occurs after the debuffs? resulting in (example BIS character being near 70% armor pen).

Also, there are armor ignore % abilities, not sure where these occur in the formula (example White Lion Sundering Chop).

Basically, these will all help me answer whether or not I should invest (Annulus rings, etc.) into mSH to build a robust DPS class or if it is better to just stick with Choppa due to most scenarios resulting a mSH with low mitigation.

If we are talking Orvr builds then most dps have around 60-70% armor penetration (arpen) without arpen tactics.
When those exist (e.g. Mara's Piercing Bite, WL's Hack and Slash, SW's Powerfull Draw) you can expect the total BIS arpen to reach 85+%
ST builds that count on flat armor debuffs usually reach around 45-55% arpen on BIS (without arpen tactics like Mara's or SH's)

Armor ignore abilities like Sundering Chop I would assume simply add the listed amount to their armor pen. I couldn't figure it just out from the database but PTS is down so I cannot test on a WL atm. Might come back to this when the PTS is open again.


To help you decide regarding armor I will also provide the complete armor formula for lvl40:

Physical_Mitigation [%] = Min{ 75 , Armor/44 * (1 - Max{arpen - redarpen , 0}) }

which in most cases can be simplified to:

Physical_Mitigation [%] = Armor/44 * (1 - arpen + redarpen)
and
Physical_Damage_Taken [%] = 100 - Armor/44 * (1 - arpen + redarpen)

As for my opinion on what this means for builds, let's first examine the comparison between a BIS MSH with around 3500 armor and a BIS Choppa with 3500 armor that becomes 1750 when Red:

• VS an enemy AOE physical dps with 85% arpen (but no armor debuff on you)
  Physical_Damage_Taken_MSH [%] = 100 - 3500/44 * (1 - 0.85 + 0) = 85.7%
  Physical_Damage_Taken_Red_Choppa [%] = 100 - 1750/44 * (1 - 0.85 + 0) = 94.0%
  
  This means that Choppa on Red takes ( (94-85.7)/85.7 =) 9.7% more physical damage than the MSH

• VS an enemy physical dps with 50% arpen but a 1360 armor debuff (WL's 9 point Force Opportunity)
  Physical_Damage_Taken_MSH [%] = 100 - (3500-1360)/44 * (1 - 0.50 + 0) = 75.7%
  Physical_Damage_Taken_Red_Choppa [%] = 100 - (3500-1360)*0.50/44 * (1 - 0.50 + 0) = 87.8%
  
  This means that Choppa on Red takes ( (87.8-75.7)/75.7 =) 16.0% more physical damage than the MSH

Overall, Armor in orvr is kinda worthless nowdays unless you can also have some reduced armor penetration% on yourself too.
On smallscale where people build STR and count on Armor strips to reduce their enemy's physical mitigation, there armor plays a bigger role.
However, the higher their penetration% (from WS, gear, tactics and/or abilities such as Sundering Strike) is, the less important it becomes.

[siglade]

[/list]
Physical_Damage_Taken_Red_Choppa [%] = 100 - (1750-1360)/44 * (1 - 0.50 + 0) = 95.6%
[/list]

This part is wrong unless something changed past two weeks. Red debuff choppa is after debuff, (3500-1360)/2

[leftayparxoun]

[/list]
Physical_Damage_Taken_Red_Choppa [%] = 100 - (1750-1360)/44 * (1 - 0.50 + 0) = 95.6%
[/list]

This part is wrong unless something changed past two weeks. Red debuff choppa is after debuff, (3500-1360)/2

You are completely correct. I derped out. Fixed the calculation in the previous comment.
Thanks.

[Illuminati]

This is very helpful and makes complete sense now. Basically, we need more -armor penetration in game and higher values on equipment. Perhaps, like what they did recently with avoidance (Parry, etc.) make it so only 50% of armor can be penetrated or something.

Anyway, sounds like I have a choice between paper and a wet noodle for mitigation in the most common form of play we have, ugh.

Thank again and thanks again for testing.

[nocturnalguest]

Just tested it:


As expected, the armor debuffs get applied at the end (after the %armor buff has been applied to your armor from gear).
I would assume the same goes for aSW.

Oh, thanks for testing, great to know how it works atm. ~1+ year ago it was base armor reduction.
Now i wonder if intended or has been just bugged.

[Avernus]

As far as i know (same as it was on live) - when you are using your squig armor/assault stance, your CURRENT armor (from your gear) is doubled. If you are debuffed BEFORE you double your armor...well, what are you planning to double if you are having almost no armor because of debuff?

Yes, that means that if you pop your defence too late, your armor will be debuffed twice.

[Illuminati]

Did some anecdotal research yesterday by getting my mSH up in the high 4k armor and resists far past the softcap. I ran into quite a few WBs head on to check survivability and the combat log.

Basically, as noted in this thread, the amount of 'spray' from random AOEs, coupled with the targeted attacks is just overwhelming for any mitigation (armor or resists) to deal with without very high toughness. I do see armor's inherent value in small game play (ranked, 6v6, etc.).

I do believe WB play would dramatically improve if they reduced the 'spray' affect by reducing the AoE cap down to 9 targets again. I also think they should reverse the melee AOE to 30' and keep the ranged AoE to 20-25'.

Ultimately, my choice between mSH, Choppa, etc. is based on Utility.

mSH:
-Cooldown increaser, though at a 20' radius it's not that effective.
-Pierce Defenses (-10% defenses)
-Med damage AoE
-Choatic punt

Choppa:
-High AoE Damage
-Single target Heal Debuff
-Chaotic pull with GTTC

I really think they borked mSH with nerfing all the goodness they created in the class. Neither class feels very rewarding. Crossing fingers that some of the WL greatness makes it over to mSH/aSW, Choppa/Slayer, and they give a unique identity to each class (or better mechanics).

[leftayparxoun]

I really think they borked mSH with nerfing all the goodness they created in the class. Neither class feels very rewarding. Crossing fingers that some of the WL greatness makes it over to mSH/aSW, Choppa/Slayer, and they give a unique identity to each class (or better mechanics).

While I'm also hopeful for what the future holds for MSH, as a MSH main I will admit that the state of the class now is not bad at all.

The big weakness of the class is the lack of both root break and defensive panic buttons that other mdps have (Charge, AOE detaunt, parry M1). Having experience and playing thoughfully regarding your positioning in orvr can mitigate those issues.

The other "issue" of MSH that is a blessing in disguise is that it synergizes a lot better with some classes compared to others.

• SnB Blackguard can provide a cooldown reduction allowing MSH to use its AOE channel on cooldown.

• Zealots running the Warping the Spirit tactic will allow MSH to take advantage of their higher armor values and become tankier than most other mdps with that proc.

• Shamans will Morale pump tactic(s) on can help MSH reach their amazing M3 faster.

Having access to those classes in your party can largely affect your potential, compared to other destro dps classes at least that perform more or less the same regardless of their groupmates' classes.

Finally, and this is more so a personal opinion, MSH should focus on WS and parry (for their defenses) instead of trying to go the conventional crit route as others mdps. While that is a controversial statement for many, I have found that it circumvents a lot of the class' weaknesses that were mentioned above.