Is this the end for the RunePriest ?

[Albais]

First of all, thank you for the detailed post.

If Runepriest were to have a 10% crit buff on their Master Rune, this would essentially compete with KOTBS' Dirty Tricks since they wouldn't stack.

As you say, this is also true for the toughness buff of the new Master Rune of Stability. Of course for us that is not a concern, so we can actually be a bit happier about the extra toughness than the runepriests playing in mixed faction warbands which in my experience often feature knights running the toughness aura.

I know very well that for BT warbands this is not an option, but I do not think that racial warbands are the main point of focus during the balancing process.

Believe me, we know!

Speaking of the non-mirrored Master Rune effects now, the auto-cleanse every 2 seconds seems incredibly powerful imo in static situations (keep/fort defenses/sieges, city fights)

Every two seconds would definitely make it a fair bit better, but this is the tick interval of Ritual of Superiority that you're thinking of.

Ritual of Superiority: Healing. 35 AP. 80 ft range. Instant. 30s CD. You may only have 1 Ritual active. - A Ritual of dominance that lasts for 10 seconds, every 2 seconds group members within 50 feet gain a shield that will absorb 375 damage for up to 10 seconds. Heals group members within 50 feet for (168+ 0.8*HB) every 5 seconds.

Master Rune of Adamant - Reworked to: Healing. 35 AP. 80 ft range. Instant. 30s CD. You may only have 1 Master Rune active. - Inscribes a Master rune into the ground for 10 seconds. Group members within 50 feet of the Rune of Adamant will be periodically cleansed, removing up to one Curse or Ailment (3 cleanses total at 0, 5, 10 seconds). Heals group members within 50 feet for (168+ 0.8*HB) every 5 seconds.

Three cleanses of a curse or ailment - each one on a (presumably) randomly chosen party member - when dropping the master rune and then at 5 and 10 seconds is okay. I'm not complaining that we get a bit of passive cleansing in the background. But, as I said before, not quite on the same level in my opinion.

Overall I think the Runepriest is not that much worse off than Zealot but, similarly to Zealot, the new utility trade-offs make them very effective but conditionally. I think that can be a good approach as it does not hinder different party compositions (previously almost any party without a Zeal/RP would be unoptimal), but their new kits do need some adjustments, which thankfully the devs are aware of.

Yes, I mostly agree with that. I'm looking forward to the result of their considerations regarding the master runes.

[leftayparxoun]

Speaking of the non-mirrored Master Rune effects now, the auto-cleanse every 2 seconds seems incredibly powerful imo in static situations (keep/fort defenses/

Every two seconds would definitely make it a fair bit better, but this is the tick interval of Ritual of Superiority that you're thinking of.

Master Rune of Adamant - Reworked to: Healing. 35 AP. 80 ft range. Instant. 30s CD. You may only have 1 Master Rune active. - Inscribes a Master rune into the ground for 10 seconds. Group members within 50 feet of the Rune of Adamant will be periodically cleansed, removing up to one Curse or Ailment (3 cleanses total at 0, 5, 10 seconds). Heals group members within 50 feet for (168+ 0.8*HB) every 5 seconds.

Three cleanses of a curse or ailment - each one on a (presumably) randomly chosen party member - when dropping the master rune and then at 5 and 10 seconds is okay. I'm not complaining that we get a bit of passive cleansing in the background. But, as I said before, not quite on the same level in my opinion.

Oh yeah, completely derped out (hadn't checked it since the patchnotes dropped).
I am pretty sure the tooltip implies that it should cleanse everyone in the party though. So AOE party cleanse for those within 50 ft every 5 seconds (not 2).

[Albais]

I am pretty sure the tooltip implies that it should cleanse everyone in the party though. So AOE party cleanse for those within 50 ft every 5 seconds (not 2).

Mhm, it is ambiguously worded.

Group members within 50 feet of the Rune of Adamant will be periodically cleansed, removing up to one Curse or Ailment (3 cleanses total at 0, 5, 10 seconds).

The first part of the sentence speaks about "group members" so that could mean all of them as you say, though it could also mean that it selects the target to cleanse from all group members that are in range. Then it goes on to say that there'll be "3 cleanses total" which I'd read as "one cleanse (an individual cleanse effect) at 0, one at 5 seconds and one at 10 seconds".

Haven't had the chance to test it yet, though. If it's implemented as a guaranteed cleanse of the entire party, that would for sure make it more worthwhile.

[georgehabadasher]

"Phenomenal nerf" is an overexageration. As it currently stands on the proposed PTS patch notes, both Zealot and RP will lose around ~6% healing output in their rotation, and exchange some parts of their utility for others (trading more consistent Absorb Shield + Blessing of Grungni/Chaos procs on teammates for less consistent procs + better secondary effects on all their Master Runes/Rituals).

How did you calculate that 6% healing reduction?

You can find the analysis here (2nd half of that comment):
viewtopic.php?t=55469&start=110#p570968

I basically compared the old and new average healing values based on a current BIS Zealot build. Then I set up a skill rotation for both old and new versions of the class and compared the average healing output of that build.

Something I did not touch upon in that comment is that before BIS, nothing changes. A Zealot on PvE BIS (VW-Sent-Beastlord mix) will have around the same (184.6) Healing Bonus as BIS geared one. It's mostly the survavibility and heal crit that increases.
If anything, on builds before BIS, the extra 10% heal crit from the new Ritual of Lunacy should equalize things even more (if the Zealot can stay within range of it for it's duration).

Oh, and in case you are wondering how things would change if you were to use other skills as fillers instead of Tzeetch's Cordial (which had a 1.5% increase in healing) :

• Dark Medicine's equilibrium between old and new patch is at 140 Healing Bonus for 5 Mastery points in the tree --> at 186.4 HB that is a 4.4% heal increase of that skill

• No changes in healing for Flash of Chaos, or for Dust of Pandemonium (DoP). Only difference would be not having the Increasing Impetus proc up since that would lower the cast-time of DoP to 1.875 seconds --> 33.3% heal increase (on a per-second basis). This difference will rarely be the case obviously (in the linked comment, I calculated 50% uptime of Increasing Impetus for Old Zealot and 40% uptime for new Zealot)

• Elixir of Dark Blessings's equilibrium between old and new patch is at 137.7 Healing Bonus for 5 Mastery points in the tree --> at 186.4 HB that is a 3.3% heal increase of that skill

I'd expect the ~6% figure to remain consistent regardless of what you choose to use in your rotation.

Saying that Zealots and RPs will be fine because they're only losing 6% healing and their survivability will be about the same is extremely misleading. There are a lot of unwarranted assumptions you're making to reach that 6% number that aren't likely to apply to a real gameplay situation.

1) You're assuming that the zealot will be in range of the ritual of lunacy, which is unlikely now that the range is 50ft. If the zealot is in range, it sacrificing its best defensive tool - positioning.

2) You mentioned proc overlapping with the new rituals, but didn't factor it into your calculations.

2a) This means you didn't factor reduced uptime of BoC into your heal output - especially crippling because it also reduces the heal output of other healers healing that target.
2b) It also means you didn't factor the reduced proc rate of Tzeentch's Grip (absorb shield) into your calculation. Instead, you calculated it as uptime - a meaningless statistic because if it's up for its full duration it means it didn't absorb anything. A more accurate measure would be procs/second or procs/gcd.

3) You also ignored the possibility of sever blessing in your calculations. This is significant for zealot heal output because:
3a) Ritual procs consistently cover your HoTs and other buffs from being severed and will now proc less.
3b) Now BoC being severed is especially crippling because it has so many fewer chances it will proc.

4) You assumed max heal crit for the sake of BoC uptime, but most zealots don't (or at least shouldn't) run maxed heal crit from renown. You can currently ensure very consistent uptime for BoC with 2 ranks of heal crit in renown, freeing up 30 renown points to spend defensively.

5) You're assuming that the zealot skill rotation is the same pre/post patch. For example, while it was nice to have leaping alteration up, it wasn't necessary to maintain your heal output, so you could allow it to fall off for a few seconds if your group was under pressure. Now, the zealot will be forced to spend 10 GCDs in 30 seconds to maintain its hots. (Tzeentch's Cordial twice on two targets, 3 rituals and 3 leaping alterations 2x2+3+3 = 10). That means you're using half your GCDs on HoTs and it also means that if you fall behind on your HoTs (maybe because they are being severed more often) zealots will have a much harder time recovering.

In summary, I feel that your post severely underestimated the negative impacts this patch will have on zealot gameplay. Zealots will have much lower heal/shield output than before, even with the buff to leaping alteration. They will also have much lower defenses as they'll need to invest more in heal crit to maintain BoC procs while also being forced closer to the frontline if they want to gain the benefits of their own rituals. They're also losing their stagger, one of their best defensive tools, if they want to spec all three rituals.

On their own, these changes would constitute a severe nerf to the class. However, when you add in the buffs that healing shaman and especially DoKs are getting, the title of this post becomes quite appropriate. It is not an exaggeration to say that this will be the end for zealots and runepriests as a competitive healing class. Their heal specs will be relegated to the status of Magus--playable, but by no means optimal and generally unwanted.

[Sulorie]

On their own, these changes would constitute a severe nerf to the class. However, when you add in the buffs that healing shaman and especially DoKs are getting, the title of this post becomes quite appropriate. It is not an exaggeration to say that this will be the end for zealots and runepriests as a competitive healing class. Their heal specs will be relegated to the status of Magus--playable, but by no means optimal and generally unwanted.

Both classes are currently ahead of both others, it is expected that they get a hit. At the moment they are THE competitive healing class.

[Hugatsaga]

Hi

If I understood correctly, the RP will undergo a phenomenal nerf. So I’m wondering if I should stop leveling mine and switch to the AM instead ?

It's not that Runepriests are getting huge nerf but everyone else is getting buffed so the new healer meta will be WP & AM.

[leftayparxoun]

Saying that Zealots and RPs will be fine because they're only losing 6% healing and their survivability will be about the same is extremely misleading. There are a lot of unwarranted assumptions you're making to reach that 6% number that aren't likely to apply to a real gameplay situation.

"Assumptions"? Yes. Otherwise you cannot really calculate anything.
"Unwarranted"? Debatable. Let's go over each of them.

1) You're assuming that the zealot will be in range of the ritual of lunacy, which is unlikely now that the range is 50ft. If the zealot is in range, it sacrificing its best defensive tool - positioning.

Correct. I have a strong feeling that if the patch goes through as is, Zealots/RPs will be forced into significant differences in their playstyle and builds (gear and masteries).
If we assume that they don't want to give up on their distancing (both them and the other healer), then

New Ritual Healing per GCD spent = 290 * 0.30 * 10 = 870 heal/GCD per target
For 6 targets that's 5220 heal/GCD

For 4 targets (dps+tanks) that healing will be 3480 heal/GCD.
Putting that in the new rotation we get:
Total Heal = 3*3480 + 3*7164 + 14*2370 = 65112 heal over 30 seconds or 2170 heal/s

And since we assume you are not staying in range of the new ritual of Lunacy this means the heal crit modifiers remain the same (more on that later), resulting in a 23.3% healing reduction (instead of 6%).

2) You mentioned proc overlapping with the new rituals, but didn't factor it into your calculations.

I assume you are referring to this:

You also get fewer ticks in the middle of their duration compared to before, but more ticks at the start and end of each ritual (that also occurs more often with the new changes). This is an issue since getting 2 procs at the same time (end tick of Ritual 1 and start tick of Ritual 2) basically wastes a proc.

This is a bit harder to model, but to give an example for Blessing of Chaos with 36% healcrit (+10% base)

• Old Zealot:
  2 ticks at 0 seconds and 1 tick at each following 3 seconds till 27 s
  At 0 seconds we have a 1 - (1-0.46)^2 = 70.84% to proc it
  At 3, 6, 9, ... 27 seconds we have a 46% chance to proc it
  The average chance to proc it at each heal instance is (0.7084*1 + 0.46*9)/10 = 0.485 , 48.5% at each instance
  This leads to an expected value of 1/0.485 = 2.06 instance = 6.2 seconds (compared to the 5.9 seconds calculated without accounting for proc overlap)
  This was enough for a 10 second duration buff to have perfect uptime in most cases
  
  Chance to not get a proc in 3 consecutive instances =
  (1-0.46)^3 = 15.8% or (1-0.7084)*(1-0.46)^2 = 8.5% if the refresh instances is involved (e.g.30 seconds)

• New Zealot:
  2 ticks at 0 seconds and 1 tick at 5 seconds
  At 0 seconds we have a 1 - (1-0.46)^2 = 70.84% to proc it
  At 5 seconds we have a 46% chance to proc it
  The average chance to proc it at each time instance is (0.7084*1 + 0.46*1)/2 = 0.584 , 58.4% at each instance
  This leads to an expected value of 1/0.584 =1.71 instances = 8.6 seconds
  (compared to the 7.2 seconds calculated without accounting for proc overlap)
  This should also be enough for a 10 second duration buff, albeit more likely to get unlucky in some cases
  
  Chance to not get a proc in 2 consecutive instances = (1-0.7084)*(1-0.46) = 15.7%

2a) This means you didn't factor reduced uptime of BoC into your heal output - especially crippling because it also reduces the heal output of other healers healing that target.

As shown above, the uptime of BoC should be nearly the same due to being a long duration proc. The initial application will just be harder to achieve.

2b) It also means you didn't factor the reduced proc rate of Tzeentch's Grip (absorb shield) into your calculation. Instead, you calculated it as uptime - a meaningless statistic because if it's up for its full duration it means it didn't absorb anything. A more accurate measure would be procs/second or procs/gcd.

The healing rotation calculations did not include shield procs.
If we examine Tzeetch's Grip with procs/second we have:

• 25% chance to proc it on a regular instance

• 43.75% chance to proc it on a refresh instance:
  4 cases (both proc, neither procs, 1 does 2 doesn't, 2 does 1 doesn't)
  Assuming that both proccing counts as 1 proc (due to instant overwrite) and knowing that their respective chances to happen are 0.0625 , 0.5625 , 0.1875 and 0.1875, we get 1 - 0.5625 = 43.75% to proc

In procs/second, this means:

• Old Zealot:
  Average number of procs during 1 period = 1*0.4375 + 9*0.25 = 2.69
  Procs per person per second = 2.69/30 = 0.0896

• New Zealot:
  Average number of procs during 1 period = 1*0.4375 + 1*0.25 = 0.688
  Procs per person per second = 0.69/10 = 0.0688

This is 23.2% less Absorb/s due to the Tzeentch's Grip procs from rituals. In reality it should be a bit better than that in case the recipient is under constant attack, because they might absorb some stuff between proc at the end of Ritual N and the proc at the start of ritual N+1 (in that fraction of a second).

3) You also ignored the possibility of sever blessing in your calculations. This is significant for zealot heal output because:
3a) Ritual procs consistently cover your HoTs and other buffs from being severed and will now proc less.
3b) Now BoC being severed is especially crippling because it has so many fewer chances it will proc.

Correct. I mainly examined it from an orvr standpoint where Sever Blessing isn't as common of an occurence as is in City/Scenarios/Ranked due to the nature and duration of those fights. Your point stands.

4) You assumed max heal crit for the sake of BoC uptime, but most zealots don't (or at least shouldn't) run maxed heal crit from renown. You can currently ensure very consistent uptime for BoC with 2 ranks of heal crit in renown, freeing up 30 renown points to spend defensively.

"Currently" is the keyword here. If the patch comes to pass as is, Zealots and Runepriests will have to focus even harder in heal crit so as to maintain their buffs. I would imagine personally that they'd even shift away from 6pc Triumphant due to that proc becoming more unreliable (due to reduced Ritual frequency and short proc duration) and would transition to 5pc Sov gear so as to increase their crit slightly more and their defences too. More heal crit than before = better heals which could counteract the heal loss from the Rituals, at least partially.

What you'll be losing with this transition is basically only the Increasing Impetus proc, which outside long/drawn-out engagements doesn't bring much to the table. This will be a marginal loss in orvr fights, but would be felt more in sieges and in City.

5) You're assuming that the zealot skill rotation is the same pre/post patch. For example, while it was nice to have leaping alteration up, it wasn't necessary to maintain your heal output, so you could allow it to fall off for a few seconds if your group was under pressure. Now, the zealot will be forced to spend 10 GCDs in 30 seconds to maintain its hots. (Tzeentch's Cordial twice on two targets, 3 rituals and 3 leaping alterations 2x2+3+3 = 10). That means you're using half your GCDs on HoTs and it also means that if you fall behind on your HoTs (maybe because they are being severed more often) zealots will have a much harder time recovering.

Also correct. The rotation will have to adapt, and teams would ideally have to rely less on Zealot's ST healing in order to maximize their efficiency. Luckily, both DOK and Shamy (who will be paired with Zealot) will be recieving strong ST healing buffs that could compensate for Zealot's extra GCDs on hots.

In summary, I feel that your post severely underestimated the negative impacts this patch will have on zealot gameplay. Zealots will have much lower heal/shield output than before, even with the buff to leaping alteration. They will also have much lower defenses as they'll need to invest more in heal crit to maintain BoC procs while also being forced closer to the frontline if they want to gain the benefits of their own rituals. They're also losing their stagger, one of their best defensive tools, if they want to spec all three rituals.

On their own, these changes would constitute a severe nerf to the class. However, when you add in the buffs that healing shaman and especially DoKs are getting, the title of this post becomes quite appropriate. It is not an exaggeration to say that this will be the end for zealots and runepriests as a competitive healing class. Their heal specs will be relegated to the status of Magus--playable, but by no means optimal and generally unwanted.

I may be understimating the issues outside orvr gameplay, but there I believe most stuff in my initial post should still stand (~6% less healing, ~18% less Absorb shields, nearly same uptime on Blessing of Chaos but new secondary effects to compensate). As I wrote previously, I think people will just swap to Sov mixes to counteract the defence loss, even if that means losing out on the Impetus proc.
As for stagger, yes, that will most likely be sacrificed. Perhaps for City and other organized content we will see it being taken at the cost of losing Tzeetch's Grip (and Wind of Insanity), but yeah.

I disagree on the fact that they won't be competitive anymore. Maybe not for city, but in general the secondary effects of the Rituals/Master Runes themselves are strong enough to warrant the slight heal/absorb output loss. Especially when your 2nd healer teammate will be able to compensate for it. I could theoretically imagine DOK/WP replacing Zeal/RP in every party, but certain new and old utility aspects of them are irreplaceable.

[georgehabadasher]

Those updated and expanded calculations are informative, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about our respective interpretations of them and their applicability outside of a white room. It seems clear to me that forcing the classes which already have the worst defenses to further sacrifice their defenses while also significantly reducing their utility and healing output is an extreme nerf.

Out of curiosity, what utility is a RP/Zealot bringing that is unique and irreplaceable? Zealot has Tzeentch's Talon, but outside of that, there's very little.

[emiliorv]

On their own, these changes would constitute a severe nerf to the class. However, when you add in the buffs that healing shaman and especially DoKs are getting, the title of this post becomes quite appropriate. It is not an exaggeration to say that this will be the end for zealots and runepriests as a competitive healing class. Their heal specs will be relegated to the status of Magus--playable, but by no means optimal and generally unwanted.

Both classes are currently ahead of both others, it is expected that they get a hit. At the moment they are THE competitive healing class.

Some years ago DoK/WP were kings....but after some changes they lose the "mandatory" status...being relegated to 2º/3º place...

[Nameless]

Those updated and expanded calculations are informative, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about our respective interpretations of them and their applicability outside of a white room. It seems clear to me that forcing the classes which already have the worst defenses to further sacrifice their defenses while also significantly reducing their utility and healing output is an extreme nerf.

Out of curiosity, what utility is a RP/Zealot bringing that is unique and irreplaceable? Zealot has Tzeentch's Talon, but outside of that, there's very little.

Tons of utility. Marks/runes by themselves gives stats and some additional effects, new rituals need to some change on cd, duration and area of effect but their effects are borderland op.

Now dok/wp to heal most efficient should be relatively at the front
Sh/AM thanks to fodg, eov need to be near the 80 ft.
Zl/rp could stay abit more behind.
That has good balance imo
After the patch because new ritual got changed range, cd and duration zl/rp should move further to front line to be most effective and keep rituals relevant. That imo is not good, and break the current range balance.

Imo rituals should share cd and it should be 15 sec while each last 20 sec, with range of effect 100 ft and allow rituals from one zl to stack