Is this the end for the RunePriest ?

[leftayparxoun]

Out of curiosity, what utility is a RP/Zealot bringing that is unique and irreplaceable? Zealot has Tzeentch's Talon, but outside of that, there's very little.

I would argue for:

• Warping the Spirit/Regenerative Shielding:
  10% Reduced armor pen + Armor buff (400 over 660 pots). After this patch DOK's new covenant will be able to provide 5% redarpen on Destro side, but the 10% buff from WtS will still be better when it procs. Overall redarpen is the best defensive stat against physical damage currently so this buff, albeit a bit unreliable is amazing when it procs.

• Marks/Oath Runes:
  There is no other reliable source of either Initiative or Willpower buffs (BO/SM roulette is hit or miss). INI is already a great stat since September and WP will be even more important after this patch. Also, the proposed changes incentivize to put more points into the middle tree than before --> better INI+WP buff (+60 at 5 Mastery points instead of +50 at 0).The granted abilities themselves are great too.

• Tzeentch's Talon M1, Rune of Insanity M1
  You mentioned Talon yourself, but the new version of Rune of Insanity will be equally important going forward in my opinion. If placed on an enemy healer that's under focus, it basically disables them for 10 seconds due to constant setbacks. The only counters are Focused Mind (or Zealot's Embrace the Warp). AM has a similar AOE debuff on their M2, but it takes longer to reach and last for 5 seconds instead of 10. I think this M1 will be especially potent in smallscale/6v6 but also probably in City.

• Suppresing The Fragile Unbelievers M3
  Great M3 that can pretty much disable enemy healers for 5 seconds if used properly.

• Zealot's Wind of Insanity
  Very good tool that can be used in multiple ways. Off the top of my head:
  • Self-survival panic button
  • CC tool to keep enemy frontline away from your backline
  • Emergency healing tool for your frontline (best shield proc+ BoC proc output per second)
  • Offensive tool to separate part of the enemy forces/tanks from what your group is focusing
  • CC tool to plug Keep/Fort entrances during pushes
  MSH's Outta My Way can be used similarly, but has a much longer downtime and makes MSH's damage output 0 during its duration. WoI allows Zealot to perform their healing duties while active.

• Sweeping Disgorgement/Concussive Runes
  Although it seems more play in dps Zeal/RP, this tactic can be used by their healer specs for pretty much the same effectiveness. On Destro side there are no other reliable AOE armor debuff sources and on Order there is no other reliable AOE Elemental resistance debuff (and Concussive Runes is arguably more reliable than a Warlord Engi trying to spread Dissolve IX)

• New Ritual of Lunacy/New Master Rune of Adamant
  Finally, the reworked versions of those skills bring more stuff to the table. Destro has had no other reliable way to increase crit chance% in an AOE manner so this will be a great offensive tool for most classes when it's up. The reworked Master Rune of Adamant (if it functions as an AOE cleanse as I imagine it does) should be Order side's most efficient cleansing tool; up to 3*6 = 18 cleanses per GCD spent. It would be tied with the 7pc Onslaught Granted ability which has a 2 minute cooldown.

[AxelF]

One of the biggest problems RP/Zealots face is the state of their mastery trees which were already an absolute mess, and have been made even worse with these changes.

All of the other healers, and most classes in general, have mastery trees separated by role - healer, damage and life taps. This allows you to go very deep in the tree you want to specialize in, and then pick up useful utility from another one.

The RP/Zealot's mastery trees were originally designed for some reason by the mechanic of the ability rather than it's effect and so were loosely instant ST, DoT/HoT and AoE. This already is a massive design flaw, as no one builds around 'Im going to be ST - both average healing and damage in one spec' or 'Im going to do moderately ineffective AoE healing and damage'.

Healing isn't as bad as the 'over time' tree is mainly damage, but for a damage dealing build your key abilities/tactics were at 11 and 13 points in the left tree, 9, 11 and 13 points in the middle tree, and 9 points in the right tree (arguably 3 and 7 too). No other healers has its core DPS abilities scattered across all 3 trees like this.

For some reason these changes have introduced another DPS mastery ability whilst making none of them core abilities, so our key DPS abilities are now 9, 11, and 13 in left; 9, 11 and 13 in middle; and 9 in right (and 3, 7).

They need a total overhaul of the mastery trees, scrapping the ridiculous ST/time/AoE design, and bringing them in line with the other classes - heal, lifetap, damage. This way of splitting the mastery trees makes even less sense following the rework, as the main channeled DPS ability has been moved to the 'instant ST' tree from the 'over time' tree.

This would also result in a much better balance between core abilities and mastery abilities, as some of the DPS abilities would have to become core, and some of the existing core healing abilities would become mastery abilities.

[Sulorie]

On their own, these changes would constitute a severe nerf to the class. However, when you add in the buffs that healing shaman and especially DoKs are getting, the title of this post becomes quite appropriate. It is not an exaggeration to say that this will be the end for zealots and runepriests as a competitive healing class. Their heal specs will be relegated to the status of Magus--playable, but by no means optimal and generally unwanted.

Both classes are currently ahead of both others, it is expected that they get a hit. At the moment they are THE competitive healing class.

Some years ago DoK/WP were kings....but after some changes they lose the "mandatory" status...being relegated to 2º/3º place...

In scenario I would rank them actually 3rd, as they "lose steam" in high pressure situations. I mean this isn't bad in itself, because someone has to be 3rd

[Sinisterror]

On PTS dps zealot has some serious burst dmg potential, its a mini sorceress with basically same Chilling gusts tactic with 5s duration/cooldown WoP Changers Echo+25% dmg increase with tactic. Demon Spitle+Warp reality has 33% chance to do more dmg than the dot tick. 75% increased dmg on tceentch cry if under 50% hp/Scourge Ignoring all resis Gives constant good dmg against most.

Also warp reality+demon spittle having 33% chance to high dmg proc also contributes to persistent sustain on the move with Changers Echo Every 5s. Then Sudden mini sorc dmg when timing Scourge,echo and Tc to hit at the same time.

EDIT; I just realized that Divine Impact 2s casttime cant be setback, New Dps Wp skill and 2s cast for melee skill its alot to ask, but if it had 30ft range, it would actually become good ability but not op. Not good to have 40s Cooldown for 10s Snare/Disarm/Root immunity for dps/shield wp/dok. This was 60s and only for dps dok/wp and let it stay like 60s. Shouldnt get better snare breaker than melee dps who originally only have access to this skill.

And what is Sigmars will? You are really giving Better Version of Melee Grp Heal(except it costs rf) to Shield Wp, but Sigmars Radiance still exsists and is now Shield or Tome only.... This feels quite middlefingery to dps wp/dok : D

[georgehabadasher]

I would argue for:

• Warping the Spirit/Regenerative Shielding:
  10% Reduced armor pen + Armor buff (400 over 660 pots). After this patch DOK's new covenant will be able to provide 5% redarpen on Destro side, but the 10% buff from WtS will still be better when it procs. Overall redarpen is the best defensive stat against physical damage currently so this buff, albeit a bit unreliable is amazing when it procs.

• Marks/Oath Runes:
  There is no other reliable source of either Initiative or Willpower buffs (BO/SM roulette is hit or miss). INI is already a great stat since September and WP will be even more important after this patch. Also, the proposed changes incentivize to put more points into the middle tree than before --> better INI+WP buff (+60 at 5 Mastery points instead of +50 at 0).The granted abilities themselves are great too.

• Tzeentch's Talon M1, Rune of Insanity M1
  You mentioned Talon yourself, but the new version of Rune of Insanity will be equally important going forward in my opinion. If placed on an enemy healer that's under focus, it basically disables them for 10 seconds due to constant setbacks. The only counters are Focused Mind (or Zealot's Embrace the Warp). AM has a similar AOE debuff on their M2, but it takes longer to reach and last for 5 seconds instead of 10. I think this M1 will be especially potent in smallscale/6v6 but also probably in City.

• Suppresing The Fragile Unbelievers M3
  Great M3 that can pretty much disable enemy healers for 5 seconds if used properly.

• Zealot's Wind of Insanity
  Very good tool that can be used in multiple ways. Off the top of my head:
  • Self-survival panic button
  • CC tool to keep enemy frontline away from your backline
  • Emergency healing tool for your frontline (best shield proc+ BoC proc output per second)
  • Offensive tool to separate part of the enemy forces/tanks from what your group is focusing
  • CC tool to plug Keep/Fort entrances during pushes
  MSH's Outta My Way can be used similarly, but has a much longer downtime and makes MSH's damage output 0 during its duration. WoI allows Zealot to perform their healing duties while active.

• Sweeping Disgorgement/Concussive Runes
  Although it seems more play in dps Zeal/RP, this tactic can be used by their healer specs for pretty much the same effectiveness. On Destro side there are no other reliable AOE armor debuff sources and on Order there is no other reliable AOE Elemental resistance debuff (and Concussive Runes is arguably more reliable than a Warlord Engi trying to spread Dissolve IX)

• New Ritual of Lunacy/New Master Rune of Adamant
  Finally, the reworked versions of those skills bring more stuff to the table. Destro has had no other reliable way to increase crit chance% in an AOE manner so this will be a great offensive tool for most classes when it's up. The reworked Master Rune of Adamant (if it functions as an AOE cleanse as I imagine it does) should be Order side's most efficient cleansing tool; up to 3*6 = 18 cleanses per GCD spent. It would be tied with the 7pc Onslaught Granted ability which has a 2 minute cooldown.

Outside of Talon, none of those are especially strong or even necessarily unique to zealot/rp.

The extra 5% reduced armor pen over a DoK/WP is equivalent reducing the attacker's weaponskill by 70. The extra armor IS nice, but again, relies on a proc, requires a tactic slot that is now competing with discipline and is severable.

The initiative/Willpower is nice, but not a reason to take a Zealot/RP over a DoK/WP that is outputting significantly higher healing numbers.

The M3 silence is extremely situational and requires you to be in the enemy backline because of its 25 ft range. The m3 absorb is standard.

Winds of insanity is one of those skills that sounds better than it is for two reasons. One, you have to be massively out of position for it to be useful and two, it's easily countered with any interrupt. It's great for messing around with pugs, but isn't going to have an impact against anyone who knows how to play the game.

The ritual buffs are decent, but again, not gamebreaking or even unique to the class.
DoKs/WPs have more consistent and better healing because of group cleanse. They also have access to prayers/rituals which add more damage than a 10% crit buff with at best a 33% uptime.

DoKs will have better healing output, better cleansing, and increase the damage output of the party. What does bringing a zealot to the group add over a DoK? Basically only Talon.

Edit: Forgot about AoE armor debuff. Requires a tactic slot and also only has 40 ft range, guaranteeing that you're out of position if you want to hit any significant number of targets with it.

[Sulorie]

DoKs will have better healing output, better cleansing, and increase the damage output of the party. What does bringing a zealot to the group add over a DoK? Basically only Talon.

The DoK has better fluff healing, because it's faster and the slower heal spells of other healers are often causing overheal. Heal DoK/WP have one good single target heal, which is fast but crits just slightly higher than other healers base heal value. Outside of this skill, their single target healing is basically non-existent and your group healing is too weak to counter extended periods of focus damage. In small scale scenarios heal wp/DoK are weak link when it comes to healing.

[Sinisterror]

It's almost like Dok/Wp backline heal purpose is to cleanse grp, Grp hot and Group Heal which is fast paced, you can basically run and cast grp heal and keep running. This keeps the grp alive while Rp/Ze/Sham/Am (espesially am/sh) saves the target from dying and heals bigger numbers/more spesific healing.

Without WP/Dok fast grp healing and cleansing its much harder to do your job as another healer, imo.

[Nameless]

Currently backline healers got huge advantage to dont have any ap problems cos of all buffs and tools that had introduced at ror. At live you manage your ap, plan it even, here it is endless while dok/wp ones still need some management. So at prolonged constant pressure dok/wp dried out and need some time to refill.

[emiliorv]

Currently backline healers got huge advantage to dont have any ap problems cos of all buffs and tools that had introduced at ror. At live you manage your ap, plan it even, here it is endless while dok/wp ones still need some management. So at prolonged constant pressure dok/wp dried out and need some time to refill.

DoK/WP got some hard nerf in the past years:
-Increase GCD from 1sec to 1.5sec => the grp heal is a 1 sec cast => lets take a 6sec time. Before change you could cast 6 grp heals and after only 4 => so its a 50% hps nerf, taking into account that the grp heal is the most used on this class this change is a huge loss => Dok/WP should get increased the value of the grp heal when the GCD was introduced..

AoE Detaunt nerf => the duration of the AoE detaunt was reduced from 15secs to 5 secs (66% reduction), and still needed the waste of a tactic slot. This change reduced drastically the survability of the class.

IMO this 2 changes made the class fell to last place of healers on both realms....looks like this new patch will bring some new tools to shine again (sorry for RP/Zea but your reign is over).

[Sinisterror]

Currently backline healers got huge advantage to dont have any ap problems cos of all buffs and tools that had introduced at ror. At live you manage your ap, plan it even, here it is endless while dok/wp ones still need some management. So at prolonged constant pressure dok/wp dried out and need some time to refill.

DoK/WP got some hard nerf in the past years:
-Increase GCD from 1sec to 1.5sec => the grp heal is a 1 sec cast => lets take a 6sec time. Before change you could cast 6 grp heals and after only 4 => so its a 50% hps nerf, taking into account that the grp heal is the most used on this class this change is a huge loss => Dok/WP should get increased the value of the grp heal when the GCD was introduced..

AoE Detaunt nerf => the duration of the AoE detaunt was reduced from 15secs to 5 secs (66% reduction), and still needed the waste of a tactic slot. This change reduced drastically the survability of the class.

IMO this 2 changes made the class fell to last place of healers on both realms....looks like this new patch will bring some new tools to shine again (sorry for RP/Zea but your reign is over).

Regarding Heal wp/dok you are 100% Correct. It's really build in the game after GCD change. Nerfing Ae Detaunt to 5s was insane change in my head always. Most people dont think gcd change is not a big deal but i really think people just have forgotten or not thought about it. I also think weird problems like you can quite easily just lot of spamming abilities in fight and if you press 2 skills at the same time one of them happens and another one goes on cooldown, and its not ui bug. Or once i could just keep using abilities without LOS on my magus in 1 scenario, this has happened on my SW as well. I dont really know why but my gut is telling me it is because of the 1.5s hardcap. After GCD change from 1.15s to 1.5s take 10s timeframe. Instant/Melee skills went from 8 to 6 in 10+ seconds.