White Lion Nerf when?

[Ruin]

to be honest i think that punting back and using skills to run/jump of a cliff should also deal fall dmg.

[Sinisterror]

Oh and remove pounce from Sqh! Well that's my solution to why every order complaints about " Can't get away from destro too much CC" And this way no need for nerfs. Re-buff all so destro has goblins Who no one catches (Add Odjra to the game balance every thing out) and order has WL who you can't get away from except maybe Goblins. Keep 5s cool down on Pounce but make it work from air. Same for engi/Magus pull should pull from keep/fort walls 75 ft pulls 4 people. Both sides would have insanely good pulls and no safe zones anywhere. What's your Solution? Keep spamming ae without targets where everyone is too easy to kill or too hard to kill?

[sundey]

I think for me they're just incredibly annoying to play against in a casual/PUG/roaming setting, and I wonder if a lot of the dislike of them comes from a similar place, rather than because of whatever ideas about group balance. Imo, other classes can be annoying for various reasons (shams/AMs dotting and lasering, SHs, WH/WE popping up and nuking you down, rKDs etc etc), but in casual play it often seems there's just no real counter to WLs or the lion.

E.g. fetch vs TE, the latter being easier to defend against, LoS and get away, interrupt, stagger etc. It's still annoying when it happens, but it feels like with Leonine Frenzy up making it immune to everything (even KD which I hadn't realised, thought the 'stun' meant just stagger), there's basically nothing you can do on some classes to avoid being pulled into the melee blob. You can't even flee since lion will still catch you, and on its own causes issues for squishies.

In the grand scheme of balance, it probably doesn't matter, but I think it's one of those things that just pisses a lot of people off, particularly when added together with all the other stuff - being a simple class to play, being relatively tough/survivable while killing ppl in the KD, being extremely mobile, being a melee class but able to stand safely back while lion does some of the work, etc. At least for me personally, I don't think any other class is quite as irritating and... cheesy. Again, in a casual/roaming setting.

I remember it was discussed here long ago about whether pulls in general are too cheesy in and of themselves. I partly agree as from my experience they're often just used to pull into the dominating blob anyway, making them more like other cheesy stuff like past mid-air pounce/self-punt etc; the engi/magus magnet seems better in this regard imo. OTOH, I'm sure the pulls feel like quite a core part of the class for WL/mara mains.

[Rapzel]

I think for me they're just incredibly annoying to play against in a casual/PUG/roaming setting, and I wonder if a lot of the dislike of them comes from a similar place, rather than because of whatever ideas about group balance. Imo, other classes can be annoying for various reasons (shams/AMs dotting and lasering, SHs, WH/WE popping up and nuking you down, rKDs etc etc), but in casual play it often seems there's just no real counter to WLs or the lion.

E.g. fetch vs TE, the latter being easier to defend against, LoS and get away, interrupt, stagger etc. It's still annoying when it happens, but it feels like with Leonine Frenzy up making it immune to everything (even KD which I hadn't realised, thought the 'stun' meant just stagger), there's basically nothing you can do on some classes to avoid being pulled into the melee blob. You can't even flee since lion will still catch you, and on its own causes issues for squishies.

In the grand scheme of balance, it probably doesn't matter, but I think it's one of those things that just pisses a lot of people off, particularly when added together with all the other stuff - being a simple class to play, being relatively tough/survivable while killing ppl in the KD, being extremely mobile, being a melee class but able to stand safely back while lion does some of the work, etc. At least for me personally, I don't think any other class is quite as irritating and... cheesy. Again, in a casual/roaming setting.

I remember it was discussed here long ago about whether pulls in general are too cheesy in and of themselves. I partly agree as from my experience they're often just used to pull into the dominating blob anyway, making them more like other cheesy stuff like past mid-air pounce/self-punt etc; the engi/magus magnet seems better in this regard imo. OTOH, I'm sure the pulls feel like quite a core part of the class for WL/mara mains.

It is annoying in any setting.
The massive nerfs on defensive stats and measures in conjunction with a front loaded dps makes WL outperform everything at the moment.
Mara damage is also absurd, but in no way close to the absurd numbers WL pumps out.

[Atropik]

Just a question, FO still cut armor by 1.6k and still undefendable, right? after all those armor value nerfs?

[JohnnyWayne]

E.g. fetch vs TE, the latter being easier to defend against, LoS and get away, interrupt, stagger etc. It's still annoying when it happens, but it feels like with Leonine Frenzy up making it immune to everything (even KD which I hadn't realised, thought the 'stun' meant just stagger), there's basically nothing you can do on some classes to avoid being pulled into the melee blob. You can't even flee since lion will still catch you, and on its own causes issues for squishies.

This screams of "I have never tried fetch myself". All of what you described also counts for fetch. WL can be cced and can't fetch while cc'ed. WL needs line of sight, but doesnt have to keep it up. Mara Pull LoS check is every 2 sec, so it breaks less likely. Pet can be stunned (if not on frenzy) and killed in an instant. Pet pathing goes ham and it will walk anywhere but to the enemy. Pet pull can be parried and you have no real control on which side of the character the pet stands. Mara Pull can be disrupted, so its all around defense, but generally less likely from DPS. If that wasn't enough, you even need a tactic slot for the pet to catch up with the enemy, quite contrary to mara pull.

But I'm with you, remove all pulls from the game. Thanks.

[sundey]

This screams of "I have never tried fetch myself". All of what you described also counts for fetch. WL can be cced and can't fetch while cc'ed. WL needs line of sight, but doesnt have to keep it up. Mara Pull LoS check is every 2 sec, so it breaks less likely. Pet can be stunned (if not on frenzy) and killed in an instant. Pet pathing goes ham and it will walk anywhere but to the enemy. Pet pull can be parried and you have no real control on which side of the character the pet stands. Mara Pull can be disrupted, so its all around defense, but generally less likely from DPS. If that wasn't enough, you even need a tactic slot for the pet to catch up with the enemy, quite contrary to mara pull.

But I'm with you, remove all pulls from the game. Thanks.

Fair enough. I have actually got a low rr 40 WL, mainly just to mess about with fetch ages ago, but I don't play it enough to feel confident to debate it from the WL's PoV. There's definitely an element of only seeing/focusing on the thing you play, I recognise that, but I think that also applies to only seeing the issues/difficulties when its the class you main.

My post was more about the perspective of playing against each of them and the feeling that TE is much less bothersome (for me) than fetch, across multiple characters/archetypes. There's often just a sense of there being 'nothing you or anyone can do' in a some situations (at least with LF up), which I think generally isn't a nice feeling in PVP games; I don't seem to get that with TE personally. But other factors are obviously relevant -- CCing and nuking down the pet as counters are a lot more feasible in an at least semi-organised group; parrying/disrupting is much less likely for some classes, and with varying levels of available CC tools, so obviously the class/archetype you usually play is going to affect perspective.

Anyway, the pull is just one thing, and not the main one, and as I said I think it's the combination with various other factors that leads to the WL hate.

[sundey]

This screams of "I have never tried fetch myself". All of what you described also counts for fetch. WL can be cced and can't fetch while cc'ed. WL needs line of sight, but doesnt have to keep it up. Mara Pull LoS check is every 2 sec, so it breaks less likely. Pet can be stunned (if not on frenzy) and killed in an instant. Pet pathing goes ham and it will walk anywhere but to the enemy. Pet pull can be parried and you have no real control on which side of the character the pet stands. Mara Pull can be disrupted, so its all around defense, but generally less likely from DPS. If that wasn't enough, you even need a tactic slot for the pet to catch up with the enemy, quite contrary to mara pull.

But I'm with you, remove all pulls from the game. Thanks.

Fair enough. I have actually got a low rr 40 WL, mainly just to mess about with fetch ages ago, but I don't play it enough to feel confident to debate it from the WL's PoV. There's definitely an element of only seeing/focusing on the thing you play, I recognise that, but I think that also applies to only seeing the issues/difficulties when its the class you main.

My post was more about the perspective of playing against each of them and the feeling that TE is much less bothersome (for me) than fetch, across multiple characters/archetypes. There's often just a sense of there being 'nothing you or anyone can do' in a some situations (at least with LF up), which I think generally isn't a nice feeling in PVP games; I don't seem to get that with TE personally. But other factors are obviously relevant -- CCing the WL in a way that successfully prevents the pull and nuking down the pet as counters are a lot more feasible in an at least semi-organised group; parrying/disrupting is much less likely for some classes, and with varying levels of available CC tools, so obviously the class/archetype you usually play is going to affect perspective.

Anyway, the pull is just one thing, and not the main one, and as I said I think it's the combination with various other factors that leads to the WL hate.

[Bozzax]

Personally I think we should buff slayer to WL level (and WH ofc)