[IronBreaker] Grumble An’ Mutter

[Ruin]

You are probably looking into wrong direction.
Usual kotbs in regular SC just fluff scoreboard numbers (some may say countering absorbs lol), once kotbs changes hit live all i see in SCs is huge throwing from lots of kotbs who could have been of much better use to their team in proper spec. Incredibly pathetic. Just take a look at their kill damage, dont look into overall number, and you will see that 2h IB kill damage in regular SC is usually higher then SM even.
IB still burstiest tank (with GBF spec obviously). Offensive build viable both as 2h and SnB.

Actualy kobs got a rly good Burst with the, changes implemeted AFTER the Tank Pach. The AP on Myrmidia Fury, + dots it has acces to, paired with bonus dmg from Shining Blade, can probably be on part with IB burst, with more defences than IB.

[nocturnalguest]

You are probably looking into wrong direction.
Usual kotbs in regular SC just fluff scoreboard numbers (some may say countering absorbs lol), once kotbs changes hit live all i see in SCs is huge throwing from lots of kotbs who could have been of much better use to their team in proper spec. Incredibly pathetic. Just take a look at their kill damage, dont look into overall number, and you will see that 2h IB kill damage in regular SC is usually higher then SM even.
IB still burstiest tank (with GBF spec obviously). Offensive build viable both as 2h and SnB.

Actualy kobs got a rly good Burst with the, changes implemeted AFTER the Tank Pach. The AP on Myrmidia Fury, + dots it has acces to, paired with bonus dmg from Shining Blade, can probably be on part with IB burst, with more defences than IB.

Nowhere close. All you can squish within 3 seconds is 1 dot tick, 2 AA and few hits from MF, SB will be outside of this window, would be much cooler if that would be selfbuff and not a hit itself. But i be honest i didnt try if you can cancel with it tho, if you can cancel with SB then cool yes, but still lower then what IB can put into this window, opening with SB is definitely not an option, 1,5 seconds wasted. IB can squish kd dot tick (last one), snare dot tick, heavy blow dot tick (close to impossible in real combat, thats mostly dummy thingy) and cancel with earthshatter plus PB ticks

[Ruin]

Nowhere close. All you can squish within 3 seconds is 1 dot tick, 2 AA and few hits from MF, SB will be outside of this window. IB can squish kd dot tick (last one), snare dot tick, heavy blow dot tick (close to impossible in real combat, thats mostly dummy thingy) and cancel with earthshatter plus PB ticks

Well i still think kobs dmg is way higher than you think, if stacked properly
and lets move the kobs subject somewhere else.

This is about IB geting After Pach reviev just like CHOSEN/KOBS got. And Geting Our Promised GnM BACK.

[Mortgrimm]

You are probably looking into wrong direction.
Usual kotbs in regular SC just fluff scoreboard numbers (some may say countering absorbs lol), once kotbs changes hit live all i see in SCs is huge throwing from lots of kotbs who could have been of much better use to their team in proper spec. Incredibly pathetic. Just take a look at their kill damage, dont look into overall number, and you will see that 2h IB kill damage in regular SC is usually higher then SM even.
IB still burstiest tank (with GBF spec obviously). Offensive build viable both as 2h and SnB.

I don´t agree here. We have recently a small scale roaming setup with 2h kotbs. Their damage is not really fluff dmg, it also has a high contribution to kills.
Maybe IB has more in percent but is doesn´t matter if IB only deals 1/3 of kotbs dmg and even less then SM.
In fact GnM was a nice to have for the ppl who don´t wanna waste time to farm Fleshrender. Again the question why these items exist?
BoG is meh, not worth to use it in any way.
IB lives from dots, nerfing Heavy Blow is in fact a huge nerf. Not irrelevant. Offensive SnB? okay, u go offensive with SnB but that´s all. Same low dmg and even less then 2h.
This is my personal opinion. I loved playing 2h IB, but i´m back to SnB turtle spec.

[nocturnalguest]

Huge lack of data in this discussion. Ok, lads, deal.

Ill just go test myself and come back here with results. IB is able to make ~8,5-9k 3 sec bursts by default on double armor debuffed construct in full cheese mod with FO and outside buffs, ~10k+ if everything crits. Assuming no PB as construct is not moving. In most possibly offensive playable spec IB can burst for 5-6k. This im sure of, already ran such experiments. Those tests were run with nothing interfering with dummy.

Ill just go cheese&"regular playable" spec (there is actually none of such, i take staggering impact to increase amount of possible dots, which is not a spec kotbs would actually run in any serious comp) with kotbs and figure what is possible to squish inside 3 sec timeframe. So we may look into reference numbers. I will have to run only 1 armor debuff on dummy because i believe it bugs out with 2 people hitting it and kotbs has no shred. Runefang will be on. Another note is that i dont know a single meta comp where kotbs will be allowed to go high into left tree to a point that in regular meta comps kotbs cant even afford a channel.

Im absolutely sure that those tests will prove my point that kotbs is just a pathetic fluffer in terms of real damage and people who do that in regular SCs are just throwing matches for their team. And my public apologies here for misrepresentation and misleading if i turn out to be wrong.

P.S. yes, im very much aware that construct has nothing to do with regular gameplay, however those numbers is the reference number for ideal conditions and fits perfectly to compare numbers between classes. they are unrealistic for each and every class so its "unreality" can be excluded from equation.

[Mortgrimm]

Huge lack of data in this discussion. Ok, lads, deal.

Ill just go test myself and come back here with results. IB is able to make ~8,5-9k 3 sec bursts by default on double armor debuffed construct in full cheese mod with FO and outside buffs, ~10k+ if everything crits. Assuming no PB as construct is not moving. In most possibly offensive playable spec IB can burst for 5-6k. This im sure of, already ran such experiments. Those tests were run with nothing interfering with dummy.

Enlighten us, pls.
Even with full dps spec, nothing in avoidance as u would go RvR, highest burst is 5k. Ofc with 100 grudge and everything alines perfectly.
Why are u talking about double armor debuff and outside buffs? U just get wrong numbers. The optimum of the best circumstances.
Btw, SM has the same by default, not even sweating. So everyone else get IB wrong and u know something noone knows. And no, it´s not the first time i play 2h IB.

[nocturnalguest]

Enlighten us, pls.
Even with full dps spec, nothing in avoidance as u would go RvR, highest burst is 5k. Ofc with 100 grudge and everything alines perfectly.
Why are u talking about double armor debuff and outside buffs? U just get wrong numbers. The optimum of the best circumstances.
Btw, SM has the same by default, not even sweating. So everyone else get IB wrong and u know something noone knows. And no, it´s not the first time i play 2h IB.

Sorry, i dont understand a word of what you say, neither i assume you understand what i say. I think i was very clear with my message and also add additional P.S. to prevent delusional "numbers" discussion.
What avoidance? What full dps spec? Ive said already "cheese" (it means that you build your char for a test with unrealistic gear/rr distribution, that you will not be able to actually play with, and its fine, for a test) and "outside" buffs (it means i will be buffed, modeling as if im in a group). On a construct. What RvR, why would you go there as 2h?

Again. Yes, construct numbers are irrelevant for real game, they are not realistic to reach even by best of the best players. Actual combat is much more complex. But you/me/we have no data of actual combat unless you parse it thru warparser tool on your own and model those ideal conditions theatrically reproducing combat events by prepared script. Its unimagenable chore, tho ive got my own collected data from random fights (warparser) but still it cant be used as "clear" showcase because there are lots of variables that affect too much and differ too much.

As ive already mentioned condition of relevantness applies to any class same way. Factors that will not be accounted i've mentioned already (kotbs will be in a spec no sane person will run in a party and no 2nd armor debuff for kotbs, no pb ticks for IB, IB starts at 100 and burst rotation is done with everything applied at 100 grudge ofc). Logic here is that you use construct number as reference to compare. Its clearest possible test. If kotbs wont be able to reach 10k then its absolutely safe to assume that in real game his burst will not be higher then IB who can reach 10k. Its this simple. All other effects that may affect this number for IB and kotbs are completely similar.

Do you now get what im saying?

P.S. And look, again, meta options for offensiveness and mastery trees just exclude kotbs from being DPS. You will take KD from midtree, you will take OS tactic and you will take FM unless you hard trolling your own party or playing topnotch 6v6 in very well thought out full synergy comp (and even there highly likely you will be forced to go Destroy Confidence and you skip KD which will be provided from your DPS for knocking focus target). So no channel, no staggering impact in kotbs real life.

[Sever1n]

Would be interesting to see videos of burst from both tanks coldstart in same normal gear (without FO and melle power, gear in wich they soloroam or play 6man) on dummy to compare. But kotbs dont have own armor shred so result prob will be in IB favor.

[Illuminati]

Would be interesting to see videos of burst from both tanks coldstart in same normal gear (without FO and melle power, gear in wich they soloroam or play 6man) on dummy to compare. But kotbs dont have own armor shred so result prob will be in IB favor.

I can share from BIS configurations. Believe it or not, most gear configurations (3x, 4x, and 2x builds) are very close.

From Chosen. Cold start, no FO on the Combat Dummy is 28 - 31 seconds. (depending on crits)
From BG. Cold start, no FO on the Combat Dummy is 32-36 seconds.

I would imagine SM smokes every tank and BO is probably second.

A better thought experiment would be to determine the 'burst window' available within a 20 second window for each tank since it would consider group play and small game play viability of tank dps w/ utilities in the rotation (punts, kds, challenges, etc.).

[Sever1n]

That 3 sec burst info from doll not enough to indicate spikes of dmg?