Time To Kill - with guard! What is your feeling about it?

[Keula]

It is really not high skill to fine tune your groups so they are 2/2/2 and then press party heal and whiled a guarded mdps presses 2 button aoes.

Aoes? I thought we were talking more small scale like scenarios cause even pug wb:s are 2/2/2(there is no "fine tuning" needed for 2/2/2, unless it's premade v premade) and they already die so fast that you're left wondering if their healers are even playing the game or if the challenge button on tanks doesn't work. Yea it's not "high skill" game, but knowing what a potion is, that FS is good thing to spec into, assist exist at all or pressing more than 2 buttons before giving up seems too hard for some pugs.

And if this game wants to attract people that are new and fresh to it they obviously will need to tone down the synergies involved in the 2/2/2. People, most people just want to log on and play a game. They do not want to join a discord or finegle groups or spend 10 mins looking for 5 healers.

You shouldnt get to autowin people just because you have the right classes in ur setup.

But 2/2/2 isn't the "auto-win" part, you can have the "right classes"(whatever that means after slayer isn't blatantly OP anymore) BiS gear 2/2/2 pug group/wb vs premade that isn't 2/2/2 nor have BiS gear nor have the "right classes" and the premade still win most likely, especially if it's an actual premade an not just some /5 discord group.
Nothing gameplay wise you try to nerf will ever change that fact, you do understand that right? You can remove healing and guard all together tomorrow and premades will still stomp pugs and life goes on. Is the next nerf suggestion going to be that if the game sees discord running and you're in a group, you get -100 all stats permanent debuff and 300 ping? and if you're 80+ on top of that double that?

[live4treasure]

It is really not high skill to fine tune your groups so they are 2/2/2 and then press party heal and whiled a guarded mdps presses 2 button aoes.

And if this game wants to attract people that are new and fresh to it they obviously will need to tone down the synergies involved in the 2/2/2. People, most people just want to log on and play a game. They do not want to join a discord or finegle groups or spend 10 mins looking for 5 healers.

You shouldnt get to autowin people just because you have the right classes in ur setup.

A great example of this mindset being applied in practice is the degeneration of modern WoW, and players seeming to prefer the 20 year old version of it to the current one, with the only thing keeping them coming back being that modern wow has new slop content to kill time in.

Yes, you can make this game more casual, as you suggest. It will come at the cost of RoR's entire identity and authenticity. No, it's not a worthwhile trade.

What's more, there's a fatal flaw in your line of reasoning. You aren't autowinning just because you have the right classes in your setup. You are severely increasing your chances of victory because you invested effort into putting together a functional class setup. You really shouldn't be arguing for equality of outcome regardless of invested effort on the part of the player. That's not even a game.

[tsyuryu]

i dont think guard is to strong, but punt being used to throw people into a bunch of dps in rvr fight is wrong, every snb tank has super punt now, they have the tankiness to dive in and just play baseball

[gisborne]

It is really not high skill to fine tune your groups so they are 2/2/2 and then press party heal and whiled a guarded mdps presses 2 button aoes.

And if this game wants to attract people that are new and fresh to it they obviously will need to tone down the synergies involved in the 2/2/2. People, most people just want to log on and play a game. They do not want to join a discord or finegle groups or spend 10 mins looking for 5 healers.

You shouldnt get to autowin people just because you have the right classes in ur setup.

A great example of this mindset being applied in practice is the degeneration of modern WoW, and players seeming to prefer the 20 year old version of it to the current one, with the only thing keeping them coming back being that modern wow has new slop content to kill time in.

Yes, you can make this game more casual, as you suggest. It will come at the cost of RoR's entire identity and authenticity. No, it's not a worthwhile trade.

A tiny minority of WoW players play Classic WoW. You make a statement as if it's fact, when it's really just based on your own opinion (and those of your friends).

And funny, I thought RoR's identity was campaign based PvP and the Warhammer IP. Not some arbitrary 2/2/2 group composition and the "right" of organized groups to farm players.

[live4treasure]

It is really not high skill to fine tune your groups so they are 2/2/2 and then press party heal and whiled a guarded mdps presses 2 button aoes.

And if this game wants to attract people that are new and fresh to it they obviously will need to tone down the synergies involved in the 2/2/2. People, most people just want to log on and play a game. They do not want to join a discord or finegle groups or spend 10 mins looking for 5 healers.

You shouldnt get to autowin people just because you have the right classes in ur setup.

A great example of this mindset being applied in practice is the degeneration of modern WoW, and players seeming to prefer the 20 year old version of it to the current one, with the only thing keeping them coming back being that modern wow has new slop content to kill time in.

Yes, you can make this game more casual, as you suggest. It will come at the cost of RoR's entire identity and authenticity. No, it's not a worthwhile trade.

A tiny minority of WoW players play Classic WoW. You make a statement as if it's fact, when it's really just based on your own opinion (and those of your friends).

And funny, I thought RoR's identity was campaign based PvP and the Warhammer IP. Not some arbitrary 2/2/2 group composition and the "right" of organized groups to farm players.

The word PVP implies competition. Competition implies that one side can win over another side via some method. That method in RoR boils down to invested effort. You invest effort in gearing. You invest effort in your personal skill, such as positioning, installing addons to make your gameplay easier, and a ton of nuances that you improve upon according to your archetype (healer, tank, dps). After that you invest effort by going into warbands. Then you can invest even more effort by joining discord premade warbands and playing according to your leaders call outs, thus concentrating the effort of 24 people to achieve maximum effect. Then you can invest even more effort by having warbands coordinate their actions with each other, such as one frontlining and another flanking, or one being main door, another postern, or coordinated siege morale pushes and so on.

It's about effort. It appears like you and salazarn want to win despite investing less effort. With all due respect, that goes against what a pvp-based game is about, and frankly comes off as entitled.

[salazarn]

The word PVP implies competition. Competition implies that one side can win over another side via some method. That method in RoR boils down to invested effort. You invest effort in gearing. You invest effort in your personal skill, such as positioning, installing addons to make your gameplay easier, and a ton of nuances that you improve upon according to your archetype (healer, tank, dps). After that you invest effort by going into warbands. Then you can invest even more effort by joining discord premade warbands and playing according to your leaders call outs, thus concentrating the effort of 24 people to achieve maximum effect. Then you can invest even more effort by having warbands coordinate their actions with each other, such as one frontlining and another flanking, or one being main door, another postern, or coordinated siege morale pushes and so on.

It's about effort. It appears like you and salazarn want to win despite investing less effort. With all due respect, that goes against what a pvp-based game is about, and frankly comes off as entitled.

Then nerf the synergies and then it can be your 'timing, organisation and teamwork' that wins fights. Unless ofcourse it was the synergies all along

[live4treasure]

The word PVP implies competition. Competition implies that one side can win over another side via some method. That method in RoR boils down to invested effort. You invest effort in gearing. You invest effort in your personal skill, such as positioning, installing addons to make your gameplay easier, and a ton of nuances that you improve upon according to your archetype (healer, tank, dps). After that you invest effort by going into warbands. Then you can invest even more effort by joining discord premade warbands and playing according to your leaders call outs, thus concentrating the effort of 24 people to achieve maximum effect. Then you can invest even more effort by having warbands coordinate their actions with each other, such as one frontlining and another flanking, or one being main door, another postern, or coordinated siege morale pushes and so on.

It's about effort. It appears like you and salazarn want to win despite investing less effort. With all due respect, that goes against what a pvp-based game is about, and frankly comes off as entitled.

Then nerf the synergies and then it can be your 'timing, organisation and teamwork' that wins fights. Unless ofcourse it was the synergies all along

So which synergies specifically are you talking about? You mean to remove the need for there to be tanks, healers and dps, and instead make it so that a random mishmash of players can win against an organised and balanced composition of these roles?

If so, then you're essentially asking to remove the main mechanism of teamwork in this game. These "synergies" are how players cooperate with each other and knowing where your role should position, when and where to move, when and which abilities to use in coordination with the rest of your team is what skill expression is in WAR. The better they cooperate, the more effective your warband becomes.

What do you want to replace this tank-dps-healer trinity with, then? I'd like to understand what your thought process is.

[salazarn]

What do you want to replace this tank-dps-healer trinity with, then? I'd like to understand what your thought process is.

I would probably restore crit ranks for dps. I would add trinkets for BS and LV gear. I would take guard to 40-45% and I would make it so healing is nerfed by 25-50% if u heal while detaunted.
Things that would add more counterplay to entrenched defensive 2/2/2s

I would Probably add some morales for smallscale to help people get kills in sc as well. And I would make it so flags in sc are capped by clicking not player weight to allow splitpushing against...you guessed it premade 2/2/2s that you cannot so much as scratch

I wouldn't break the system though

[salazarn]

What do you want to replace this tank-dps-healer trinity with, then? I'd like to understand what your thought process is.

I would probably try to restore live AoR crit ranks for dps. Might add a renown that increases dmg done and dmg taken by like 6% like the tanking one. Just restore dmg dealing to closer where it originally was.

I would add trinkets for BS and LV gear cos why not. I would take guard to 40-45% and I would make it so healing is nerfed by 15-30% if u heal while detaunted.
Things that would add more counterplay to entrenched defensive 2/2/2s and let healers be more killable.

And I would make it so flags in sc are capped by clicking not player weight to allow splitpushing against...you guessed it premade 2/2/2s that you cannot so much as scratch

I wouldn't break the system though and I am sure premades 2/2/2s will still win virtually all the time.

[live4treasure]

What do you want to replace this tank-dps-healer trinity with, then? I'd like to understand what your thought process is.

I would probably restore crit ranks for dps. I would add trinkets for BS and LV gear. I would take guard to 40-45% and I would make it so healing is nerfed by 25-50% if u heal while detaunted.
Things that would add more counterplay to entrenched defensive 2/2/2s

I would Probably add some morales for smallscale to help people get kills in sc as well. And I would make it so flags in sc are capped by clicking not player weight to allow splitpushing against...you guessed it premade 2/2/2s that you cannot so much as scratch

I wouldn't break the system though

I don't think the class system is at fault for your experience in SCs. It's more so that there is a specific group on this server that logs on to specifically farm pugs, and logs off when they get any serious opposition. They feel invulnerable because of the gear difference, and because with pugs people are not assisting the same target. It wouldn't matter even if guard was 30%, you wouldn't be able to kill your target if he severely outgears you and the rest of your team isn't focusing the same target that you are.

The upcoming scenario matchmaking system will help smoothen this experience out, as teams like that will naturally gain a higher matchmaking value, and you will not run into them unless you are equal geared and win as often as they do.

Until then, here is some advice; some years back most premades were on destro. Order started beating them because there was a certain time of day when pretty much unafilliated players would log on, but they were names that would recognise each other. Because they knew who was able to deal damage and who wasn't, they would set their assist macros to each other, and as a result, would naturally focus the same target and score kills. Perhaps try to convince your fellow players to set assist macros on you, so you can get some revenge on the premades.