WAAAGH… RIP.

[Nameless]

Imo the reward structure is the biggest problem. Ppl learn the game mechanics when play small scale but the small scale is no more cos for the backbone of every group the dps classes is more profitable to just zerg surf. Renown and crests that my sorc get while surfing is disgusting.

So there is no more ch5 lf tank/heal for 6 man cos it is easier and profitable to run solo at the tail

Solo, duo runs into orvr are so rewarding that they kill (along with other bad changes) scenarios mode which is the other main learning place.

Change reward structure, bring some meaning to the campaign and make bos more important so ppl disperse at the zone and more small fights occur

[Alubert]

Small groups disappear.
Medium groups disappear.
Other warbands are forced either to join the blob or avoid the main fight.
Objectives away from the blob become secondary.
The lake stops being a battlefield and becomes a corridor for two giant balls.

Unfortunately, you're right.

It's sad how one thoughtless playstyle has come to dominate all others.

As an orthodox small-scale player, I can spend hours looking for a normal party (6-man max).
A while back, I’d wait just a few seconds to get an invite after posting a /5, especially since I prefer playing tanks and healers. I’d get a group invite almost immediately.
Now it’s a disaster.
After an hour or two and having played one scenario in the meantime, I log into the other faction to look for a group there. The scenario repeats itself, and after 3–4 hours, I log off.

Many factors have contributed to the current situation, including the mentality of players who like to take the path of least resistance. No thinking, just AoE.

I would start by reverting to the 9-target AoE limit.
Of course, many will say that this won’t change anything, but that’s not true.
There was a debate on this topic, and the AoE lobby had the stronger voice.
AoE DPS players would immediately see a drop in damage, and they wouldn’t like it, so they’d look for other, more sophisticated ways to eliminate opponents.

Additionally, reducing all AoE damage in the game by 20–25% would also help.

Changing RvR maps to ones with anti-blob mechanics. More BO, etc. Staying in a blob should completely eliminate the possibility of a lock zone.

[Alubert]

I lead warbands in NA time, I don't push warcamp for hours, I ask the zone to give breathing space so we can have good fights. Check me on it, ask NA folks, there are dozens of us!

Blaming WBLs is silly, because you would be the first to cry that no one is leading warbands.

Blob fights aren't my favorite but the game heavily favors funnels and all the rewards are front loaded on kills, so it's a natural tendency for players to look for big fights. Small man and solo are super fun but it's an experience you can easily find in other MMOs, giant scale battles are much harder to find with the quality that RoR brings.

There's a guild on the server that found interesting strategy to really cripple organized warbands, it's really fun because it pushes the meta to evolve.

EDIT: Like KPI said earlier in the thread, there are many ways to play and you can find the kind of fight you're looking for. I mostly play against his guild when they are near logging off, but I can attest that they take good fights and help make zones interesting.

You are absolutely wrong.
On the live server and in the early days here, such situations didn’t happen despite many organized WBs.

It started with the terrible idea of changing the AoE cap from 9 to 24.
And then the devs completely caved to the powerful AoE lobby because they’re very vocal.

On top of that, smaller groups had tools to escape from wbs/blobs, like their own CWs/RWs, their own speed buffs (Odjira, etc.), and tank abilities that affected the entire group, like RD/LTC (and not like now, where speed buffs apply to the entire wb/zerg). Another stupid decision is that the latest Sove/War abilities work outside the party, further aiding the zerg).

In this area, the devs have suffered a massive failure.
It’s a shame because I’m thrilled with many changes, like the class balance (except for WE, of course) and many others. Great WS/Ini changes. Great tanks punts changes, potions ect. ect.
But ultimately, ORVR is what defines the quality of this game, not balance.

[reyaloran]

I lead warbands in NA time, I don't push warcamp for hours, I ask the zone to give breathing space so we can have good fights. Check me on it, ask NA folks, there are dozens of us!

Blaming WBLs is silly, because you would be the first to cry that no one is leading warbands.

Blob fights aren't my favorite but the game heavily favors funnels and all the rewards are front loaded on kills, so it's a natural tendency for players to look for big fights. Small man and solo are super fun but it's an experience you can easily find in other MMOs, giant scale battles are much harder to find with the quality that RoR brings.

There's a guild on the server that found interesting strategy to really cripple organized warbands, it's really fun because it pushes the meta to evolve.

EDIT: Like KPI said earlier in the thread, there are many ways to play and you can find the kind of fight you're looking for. I mostly play against his guild when they are near logging off, but I can attest that they take good fights and help make zones interesting.

You are absolutely wrong.
On the live server and in the early days here, such situations didn’t happen despite many organized WBs.

It started with the terrible idea of changing the AoE cap from 9 to 24.
And then the devs completely caved to the powerful AoE lobby because they’re very vocal.

On top of that, smaller groups had tools to escape from wbs/blobs, like their own CWs/RWs, their own speed buffs (Odjira, etc.), and tank abilities that affected the entire group, like RD/LTC (and not like now, where speed buffs apply to the entire wb/zerg). Another stupid decision is that the latest Sove/War abilities work outside the party, further aiding the zerg).

In this area, the devs have suffered a massive failure.
It’s a shame because I’m thrilled with many changes, like the class balance (except for WE, of course) and many others. Great WS/Ini changes. Great tanks punts changes, potions ect. ect.
But ultimately, ORVR is what defines the quality of this game, not balance.

I love how every single thread I see you in you are pushing for a 9 target cap and even after we tried it and proved that it made the blob stronger you still refuse to let go of lowering the target cap. Once again when you use your brain for more then just 2 seconds you would realize that the blob has more then 9 tank players allowing them to split the damage they take between more players which are designed to do so which means that they will die extremely slowly. A non blob even a full 24 man has <9 tank players meaning they will take much more damage then the blob on targets that cant sustain that damage income. If you want a blob to be broken you need to increase the number of targets a group can hit so that they can do more proportional damage to the over pop side.

[Akalukz]

Tie AoE Cap to AAO

[Alubert]

I lead warbands in NA time, I don't push warcamp for hours, I ask the zone to give breathing space so we can have good fights. Check me on it, ask NA folks, there are dozens of us!

Blaming WBLs is silly, because you would be the first to cry that no one is leading warbands.

Blob fights aren't my favorite but the game heavily favors funnels and all the rewards are front loaded on kills, so it's a natural tendency for players to look for big fights. Small man and solo are super fun but it's an experience you can easily find in other MMOs, giant scale battles are much harder to find with the quality that RoR brings.

There's a guild on the server that found interesting strategy to really cripple organized warbands, it's really fun because it pushes the meta to evolve.

EDIT: Like KPI said earlier in the thread, there are many ways to play and you can find the kind of fight you're looking for. I mostly play against his guild when they are near logging off, but I can attest that they take good fights and help make zones interesting.

You are absolutely wrong.
On the live server and in the early days here, such situations didn’t happen despite many organized WBs.

It started with the terrible idea of changing the AoE cap from 9 to 24.
And then the devs completely caved to the powerful AoE lobby because they’re very vocal.

On top of that, smaller groups had tools to escape from wbs/blobs, like their own CWs/RWs, their own speed buffs (Odjira, etc.), and tank abilities that affected the entire group, like RD/LTC (and not like now, where speed buffs apply to the entire wb/zerg). Another stupid decision is that the latest Sove/War abilities work outside the party, further aiding the zerg).

In this area, the devs have suffered a massive failure.
It’s a shame because I’m thrilled with many changes, like the class balance (except for WE, of course) and many others. Great WS/Ini changes. Great tanks punts changes, potions ect. ect.
But ultimately, ORVR is what defines the quality of this game, not balance.

I love how every single thread I see you in you are pushing for a 9 target cap and even after we tried it and proved that it made the blob stronger you still refuse to let go of lowering the target cap. Once again when you use your brain for more then just 2 seconds you would realize that the blob has more then 9 tank players allowing them to split the damage they take between more players which are designed to do so which means that they will die extremely slowly. A non blob even a full 24 man has <9 tank players meaning they will take much more damage then the blob on targets that cant sustain that damage income. If you want a blob to be broken you need to increase the number of targets a group can hit so that they can do more proportional damage to the over pop side.

Whatever arguments you bring up, answer me this one question:
Will a 9-target AoE cap reduce AoE damage?
In my opinion, yes—by about 66%.

The point is to reduce all AoE damage in the game, not just fight against blobs. The fewer Zerglings crammed into every square centimeter, the better.

Ever since this change was introduced, WB leaders have defended it as best they could.
One even openly wrote that the 9-target AoE cap is weak because it deals too little damage

[Bankei]

I lead warbands in NA time, I don't push warcamp for hours, I ask the zone to give breathing space so we can have good fights. Check me on it, ask NA folks, there are dozens of us!

Blaming WBLs is silly, because you would be the first to cry that no one is leading warbands.

Blob fights aren't my favorite but the game heavily favors funnels and all the rewards are front loaded on kills, so it's a natural tendency for players to look for big fights. Small man and solo are super fun but it's an experience you can easily find in other MMOs, giant scale battles are much harder to find with the quality that RoR brings.

There's a guild on the server that found interesting strategy to really cripple organized warbands, it's really fun because it pushes the meta to evolve.

EDIT: Like KPI said earlier in the thread, there are many ways to play and you can find the kind of fight you're looking for. I mostly play against his guild when they are near logging off, but I can attest that they take good fights and help make zones interesting.

You are absolutely wrong.

Yes, my first-hand experience is wrong. Solid argument.

On the live server and in the early days here, such situations didn’t happen despite many organized WBs.

Ok, boomer

It started with the terrible idea of changing the AoE cap from 9 to 24.
And then the devs completely caved to the powerful AoE lobby because they’re very vocal.

hahahahaha, "the powerful AoE lobby", you mean the majority of the playerbase?

On top of that, smaller groups had tools to escape from wbs/blobs, like their own CWs/RWs, their own speed buffs (Odjira, etc.), and tank abilities that affected the entire group, like RD/LTC (and not like now, where speed buffs apply to the entire wb/zerg). Another stupid decision is that the latest Sove/War abilities work outside the party, further aiding the zerg).

Some of the best players right now run almost exclusively small man, they are able to destabilize massive numbers and come up with creative strategies. But sure, let's just cry about how it used to be better.

Also, the ridiculous idea that the entire blob moves perfectly under Sov speed. The reality is that people start to collide and movement breaks down. Obviously a greater mass of players can leap frog each other by staying mounted, so it's quite easy to run down a small man, but this kind of chasing is simply not worth it.

Ultimately, this is the weakness of the blob: it is not a single monolith but a group of warbands who follow the most organized among them. Within that paradigm, a strong and organized warband can flank the blob, eat the tail or flanks, build morales and be ready to fight greater numbers with a morale advantage. To reach blob-breaking level of skill and organization is difficult, I'm working hard on improving my own WBL skills to try and achieve this. The journey is most of the fun.

I understand that I say this as a privileged player who doesn't really need any war crests at the moment except on my many alts that I'm not in a hurry to play. For a lot of new players, the push and pull at the warcamp becomes the most incentivized way to play the game (which I will agree is not fun). I have the luxury of directing my warband to step away and look for a better fight, but I understand why the blob may not want that.

In this area, the devs have suffered a massive failure.
It’s a shame because I’m thrilled with many changes, like the class balance (except for WE, of course) and many others. Great WS/Ini changes. Great tanks punts changes, potions ect. ect.
But ultimately, ORVR is what defines the quality of this game, not balance.

So ORVR defines the game but the "powerful AoE lobby" is somehow a special interest group? Come on man, I can't take you seriously. This Golden Age Fallacy you seem to live in.

[chookette]

I think we’re starting to move away from the topic of “blob gameplay in RvR” and into the mini-game of “who has the biggest ego on the forum”.

The original point was not to say:
This realm is bad,
This warband is abusing something,
or small-scale players are just crying.

The real topic is more:

Does the game currently reward players too much for staying glued together in one big mass?
Does it still leave enough room for 6man, 12man, flanking, roaming and actual map decisions?
Can we keep epic large-scale fights without the best plan always being: stack more bodies and push W?

Blobs have always existed, yes.
Excuses after a loss have always existed too.
But that does not mean the topic itself does not exist.

So yeah: less ego dueling, more discussion about the health of RvR.

Because in the long run, if the only viable strategy becomes stack more bodies and push W, we might as well rename the game Blobhammer Online.

[Slowbro]

Reduction of aoe limit won't do much but you could try it. Imo it will not work, aoers will still farm in the blob. The lobby is so strong because it features ranged DDS, healers, and tanks. I think what Alubert said is kind of true. If solos (all classes) / small grps all had some Blob/WB escape mechanic, the system would change for the better. At the moment only WE and WH have something like that and of course that allows them to a certain degree to still be active in the solo / small scale gameplay which is totally fine (but even those classes suffer from stealth duration and vanish speed nerfs). If all classes would have some escape from the blob the blobs would soon disappear (no not stealth fo everyone, be more creative). In addition a speed debuff for blob could further help, like the lotd debuff just for speed lol. Also, just reveal blobs on the minimap for the other faction so they can be avoided more easy.

[tefnaht]

Some of the best players right now run almost exclusively small man, they are able to destabilize massive numbers and come up with creative strategies. But sure, let's just cry about how it used to be better.

Just remove BO 11 tactic in middle tree to someting "add 25% of disrupt to party" rather than movespeed buff, convert gobbo tactic to add move speed into "give 700 absorb once in 10 sec" and you will see how they become to garbage. Current state - desto has an opportunity to kile as hell and desto has a "skilled patrty", kite party can kill only guys who "tricked and go to PvE" in attemt to kill them, somehow it has to be balanced with WL, but now... wb WL has no pull and with same time destro can pounce in form of WE... So... Skill you are reference to - one side has great opportunity to kite and they find targets thats take a bite... But it's one sided and skilled players just ignore such enemies, they can't kill you in a face to face in a clunch, just don't follow them. If thats a skill play - give it to both sides...