Tier 1-3 Scenarios are the most enjoyable content

[Mvl130]

The gear issue is minor, RR is still the OP part.
Opportunist IV it is +14% crit.
BiS gear is 16% crit.
Comparing Vanq with Sov straight up it is 1% crit that differs.
As soon as you hit Vanq level of gear you are more or less competitive gear wise. What you lack is 25 RR, those 25 RR lets you get 11% more parry or dodge/disrupt and e.g. 5% reduced CTBC from FS.

It's possible yes that the RR may be more responsible than gear for gap between rank 40 players

[Mvl130]

There's another argument I found in favor of midtier RvR Lakes, it is that since it would make it more enjoyable for veterans of the game to level up new alts, you'd have at the same time less players concentrated in T4 (less blob), and more available for midtier

[Scidadle]

It sounds to me like the bigger issue is the experience of being a fresh 40 character.

I am pretty much brand new to RoR/WAR and am leveling my first character right now, and after reading this thread, and other discussions on the forum, I can't say I'm very excited for rank 40/endgame.

Not sure I have enough knowledge to have a well thought out opinion/suggestions, but hopefully when I hit rank 40, I'm not just looking to reroll again.

[Rapzel]

Spoiler:

Come on, you can't seriously believe that. 4 runs of Gunbad, 4 runs of City, 4 runs of BS, 4 runs of LV, with a 1 day lockout between runs so a minimum of 16 days. I've been online for about 8 hours a day the last couple weeks and you know how many LV runs my WP (who needs 2 more runs) has gotten? 0. So even if we pretend that you get a run a day, what exactly do you think is happening between those runs if not RvR/Scenarios with terrible gear?

Then there's the fact that a typical pug LV group will take 1.5-2.5 uninterrupted hours. BS is an hour+. Good luck fitting that into a casual gaming schedule.

Finally, I'd argue that even without the gear gap and everyone in BiS, the power dynamic changes in a way that is less fun. DPS is crazy high. Tanks are ridiculously tanky. Heals are both very strong and yet in some situations completely inadequate.

Minimum of 16 days? You realise that you can run more than one dungeon right?
Should the lock out be lowered? Maybe Idk, I see it as a minor issue.

"It is so difficult to find groups as a solo player!"
So join a guild, get friends that do seem to have some sort of button pressing ability.

Quick runs of LV are sub 1 hour, average runs without complete idiots are 1½ hrs.
Normal BS runs are sub 1 hr, but lets round it to 1 hr.
Gunbad sub 1 hr, but lets round it to 1 hr.
BB/Crypt 30-45 mins

So even if you have a sub-optimal group of 6 it is a total of ~16 hrs to go from "no gear" to Dark Promise.
Which means that if you play 2,5 hrs effectively per day for a week you are fully geared.
This minimum of 16 days is just crazy.

The gear issue is minor, RR is still the OP part.
Opportunist IV it is +14% crit.
BiS gear is 16% crit.
Comparing Vanq with Sov straight up it is 1% crit that differs.
As soon as you hit Vanq level of gear you are more or less competitive gear wise. What you lack is 25 RR, those 25 RR lets you get 11% more parry or dodge/disrupt and e.g. 5% reduced CTBC from FS.

Sov choppa/slayer chest
668 Armor
+ 38 Strength
+ 20 Wounds
+ 20 Initiative
+ 22 Weapon Skill
+ 1 AP per second

Vanq choppa/slayer chest
548 Armor
+ 39 Strength
+ 15 Wounds
+ 20 Initiative
+ 11 Weapon Skill

The stat differences are not insane, sure they make a difference, but my argument that RR affects the outcome more than the gear still stands.

25-40% diff in hit points says you are completely wrong
Vanq is ok , that should be a 40/40 set (or conq buffed to vanq levels)

Another quality post...
The discussion is about gear progression.

The difference between vanq and off sov is 37 wounds for a mdps (without sov cloak and sov ring counted as there is no vanq cloak or ring).
Interestingly enough, dark promise has 174 wounds vs sovs 163 vs vanqs 126.
Even if you were able to equip full sov on RR 40/40 you would lack 40 renown points and 3 mastery points, which is a bigger problem than gear.

[Bozzax]

Spoiler:

Minimum of 16 days? You realise that you can run more than one dungeon right?
Should the lock out be lowered? Maybe Idk, I see it as a minor issue.

"It is so difficult to find groups as a solo player!"
So join a guild, get friends that do seem to have some sort of button pressing ability.

Quick runs of LV are sub 1 hour, average runs without complete idiots are 1½ hrs.
Normal BS runs are sub 1 hr, but lets round it to 1 hr.
Gunbad sub 1 hr, but lets round it to 1 hr.
BB/Crypt 30-45 mins

So even if you have a sub-optimal group of 6 it is a total of ~16 hrs to go from "no gear" to Dark Promise.
Which means that if you play 2,5 hrs effectively per day for a week you are fully geared.
This minimum of 16 days is just crazy.

The gear issue is minor, RR is still the OP part.
Opportunist IV it is +14% crit.
BiS gear is 16% crit.
Comparing Vanq with Sov straight up it is 1% crit that differs.
As soon as you hit Vanq level of gear you are more or less competitive gear wise. What you lack is 25 RR, those 25 RR lets you get 11% more parry or dodge/disrupt and e.g. 5% reduced CTBC from FS.

Sov choppa/slayer chest
668 Armor
+ 38 Strength
+ 20 Wounds
+ 20 Initiative
+ 22 Weapon Skill
+ 1 AP per second

Vanq choppa/slayer chest
548 Armor
+ 39 Strength
+ 15 Wounds
+ 20 Initiative
+ 11 Weapon Skill

The stat differences are not insane, sure they make a difference, but my argument that RR affects the outcome more than the gear still stands.

25-40% diff in hit points says you are completely wrong
Vanq is ok , that should be a 40/40 set (or conq buffed to vanq levels)

Another quality post...
The discussion is about gear progression.

The difference between vanq and off sov is 37 wounds for a mdps (without sov cloak and sov ring counted as there is no vanq cloak or ring).
Interestingly enough, dark promise has 174 wounds vs sovs 163 vs vanqs 126.
Even if you were able to equip full sov on RR 40/40 you would lack 40 renown points and 3 mastery points, which is a bigger problem than gear.

I think the discussion is mixing two separate issues.

First, regarding RR, I’m not saying it isn’t important. The point is that the 40/40 → 40/80 progression should be improved for players who don’t do PvE.

While the small RR differences spent on reduced crit chance and avoidance do matter, they only amount to roughly a 30–40 point gap, which doesn’t fundamentally change the overall progression issue.

With that in mind, the 37 wounds difference between Vanquisher and offensive Sovereign does not really address the point, because I’m not comparing Vanquisher to Sovereign in isolation. Instead, I’m saying Vanquisher is already a reasonable baseline, while Conqueror is too weak as the starting RvR set.

Looking at the broader progression path helps clarify this further. An organised minority can bypass much of it through PvE and reach near-Sovereign gear early, while most players move through Conqueror and early RvR sets.

Because of this, focusing on one set comparison also misses how gearing works in practice. Endgame characters gain wounds across multiple pieces, better accessories, and more flexibility to combine sets while keeping strong primary stats. These gains stack across the whole character.

As a result, endgame characters often have a 25–40% larger hit point pool, plus better armor, avoidance and resistances. RR matters, but it does not make the early RvR gear progression good.

So, tying it all together, my point is simple: Conqueror is too weak for the 40/40 starting point, and Vanquisher is closer to where that baseline should be.

[Rapzel]

Spoiler:

25-40% diff in hit points says you are completely wrong
Vanq is ok , that should be a 40/40 set (or conq buffed to vanq levels)

Another quality post...
The discussion is about gear progression.

The difference between vanq and off sov is 37 wounds for a mdps (without sov cloak and sov ring counted as there is no vanq cloak or ring).
Interestingly enough, dark promise has 174 wounds vs sovs 163 vs vanqs 126.
Even if you were able to equip full sov on RR 40/40 you would lack 40 renown points and 3 mastery points, which is a bigger problem than gear.

I think the discussion is mixing two separate issues.

First, regarding RR, I’m not saying it isn’t important. The point is that the 40/40 → 40/80 progression should be improved for players who don’t do PvE.

While the small RR differences spent on reduced crit chance and avoidance do matter, they only amount to roughly a 30–40 point gap, which doesn’t fundamentally change the overall progression issue.

No you are mixing in your personal bias into the discussion on whether or not gear creep is a massive problem or not. those 30-40 points gap pure stats wise is 120+ points. Straight up piece by piece, vanq vs. sov is a difference of 76 stat points. Stats that are already allocated, and where roughly 40 points are invested into toughness when it comes to sov.

With that in mind, the 37 wounds difference between Vanquisher and offensive Sovereign does not really address the point, because I’m not comparing Vanquisher to Sovereign in isolation. Instead, I’m saying Vanquisher is already a reasonable baseline, while Conqueror is too weak as the starting RvR set.

Looking at the broader progression path helps clarify this further. An organised minority can bypass much of it through PvE and reach near-Sovereign gear early, while most players move through Conqueror and early RvR sets.

And we are not discussing this, so you are just derailing.

Because of this, focusing on one set comparison also misses how gearing works in practice. Endgame characters gain wounds across multiple pieces, better accessories, and more flexibility to combine sets while keeping strong primary stats. These gains stack across the whole character.

As a result, endgame characters often have a 25–40% larger hit point pool, plus better armor, avoidance and resistances. RR matters, but it does not make the early RvR gear progression good.

No it misses how you PREFER gearing. If you want a thread about RvR gearing go ahead.
The discussion started here;

Gear gap is a myth, dont spread missinformation

You can get yourself into full darkpromise before you hit rr50, which is literally sov tier level. You can easily check yourself historical runs made on that fancy web and figure things like rr44 BO tanking whole thing

One can argue that there shouldnt be so much PvE in PvP game however its whole different discussion

What is not a myth tho, that skill gap is so huge between newcomers and veterans that yeah, gl beating long established teams, i wouldnt be suprised if some will beat the crap out of noobs being in conq vs full sov

So your final "point" here

So, tying it all together, my point is simple: Conqueror is too weak for the 40/40 starting point, and Vanquisher is closer to where that baseline should be.

Should be in its own thread.

[Bozzax]

I don’t think those examples support the claim that “gear gap is a myth.”

Dark Promise is an alternative PvE gearing path. The fact that some players can bypass the RvR gearing path doesn’t tell us whether the RvR progression itself is well balanced.

Likewise, comparing full Sovereign to Vanquisher isn’t representative. They don’t cover all player slots. Also Full Sov is a theoretical endpoint, while most endgame builds are mixed rather than literal full Sovereign.

My point is simply that the RvR gearing path can be improved. Most players begin RvR progression in Conqueror and advance from there. If that baseline is too weak, then that’s the issue—not whether some players skip it through PvE. Maybe it should be an own thread

[Dwarni]

Maybe they should make a poll to find out how many players stop playing at 40 and instead reroll another char. 40 SCs as fresh 40 aren't any fun and RvR is basically the same: boring imbalanced blob.

[Rapzel]

I don’t think those examples support the claim that “gear gap is a myth.”

Dark Promise is an alternative PvE gearing path. The fact that some players can bypass the RvR gearing path doesn’t tell us whether the RvR progression itself is well balanced.

Likewise, comparing full Sovereign to Vanquisher isn’t representative. They don’t cover all player slots. Also Full Sov is a theoretical endpoint, while most endgame builds are mixed rather than literal full Sovereign.

My point is simply that the RvR gearing path can be improved. Most players begin RvR progression in Conqueror and advance from there. If that baseline is too weak, then that’s the issue—not whether some players skip it through PvE. Maybe it should be an own thread

Stop going off-topic.

Some players are all players, what does it matter that dark promise is an "alternative" (whatever that means) gearing path?

I am comparing the pieces that exist in both sets.

See previous point.

This is not a thread about RvR gearing path, get that into your skull.

The thread is about Tier 1-3 Scenarios are the most enjoyable content
To which (as per usual) someone blamed the "gear gap" in t4, which we point out is not as big as people like you make it out to be (40% hp difference sure mate).
The same gear gap exists in T3, I would argue the gear gap is even worse in t2-t3.

In the majority of T3 scs you will see stuff like this

[nocturnalguest]

The same gear gap exists in T3, I would argue the gear gap is even worse in t2-t3.

Oh, great mention this one i missed out completely. Thats very important thesis

Indeed, difference in performance between anything and decked out cr36+ DPS in ruin/anni/merc is by miles a much bigger gear gap then anything you encounter at T4. Your average preBiS typical mix of vanq-vw-sentinel-beastlord (noting that you dont even have to set a foot into LV at this point) for your typical mdps will net you few K of damage loss, equal (performance wise) defenses and a tiny bit less crit and overally your performance will greatly depend on GCD management and movement while situation is so much different in t2-t3 bracket.

Later t3 sets along with combat rank and mastery points outperform pre cr36 ones way bigger (like shown on picture) and are much harder to overcome by GCD management (aka skill).

So t2-t3 is way more unbalanced then t4. I do understand why people like t2-t3 more, you dont meet much of proper gameplay there, its chaotic and very puggy. But! If you happen to meet midtier premades or some veterans leveling or having a relief you will get way worse exp... So i completely disagree with OP take of "that feeling you get in T1-3 of fair fights, where nobody is completely worthless, and nobody is steamrolling others", like just be honest and recall bunch of groups who were unable to compete in t4 due to lower skill during first ring event and so they went into t2-t3 to farm, even such low skill folks made midtier scs exp completely nightmarish, imagine if someone else did that

As for the agruments and discussion as a whole, in current system conq/domi is such decent set, cmon, you cant be serious. Take snb tanks (or ranged healers) as example, you can spend 800 crests, skip gunbad and tank any PvE without big issues to get all other gear and wards. I dont mind if conq/domi gets a buff but it will not change anything. Lowering exp gain in SCs will also increase amount of twinks/premades in midtier, so be careful what you wish for, at the moment with -exp scroll banned and all the other measures made you get your fancy braindead midtier, if those things are back it will make more people roll decked out twinks and form 6mens /shrug