Give WP/DoK a gap closer.

[kleinbuchstabe]

Why play a DoK in SCs when a WE can bypass armor, 50% crit damage all the time, has better tactics and gearing, or play a mura which is really just like DoK+, where you get sooooo much awesome stuff, and better damage, for trading out that broken heal channel lol. Smart pulls win fights, having a charge for kiety people is a must. Better tactics, better damage.

Thats the point. And why most people (including me) stoped playing dps dok. Its just the worst choice for MDPS atm, you will be more usefull and have more fun with every other pick. It takes a relatively lot of effort and good timing to play a DPS dok well. In comparison, playing WL after a session with dok feels like vacation: suddenly you fly over the map and do more damage with half use of buttons - also because you are always in fight, while the dok is still busy with bridging the gap to the next target. Movement and momentum are the keys in this game, espacialy for mdps. Bad mobility = bad class. And after his heal abilities got nerfed more and more, dual wield dok has nothing to offer anymore that would make him worth to play. So he will stay on the bench, until he gets some love, what i dont expect in close future. Unfortunately.

[Avernus]

Thats the point. And why most people (including me) stoped playing dps dok. Its just the worst choice for MDPS atm, you will be more usefull and have more fun with every other pick. It takes a relatively lot of effort and good timing to play a DPS dok well. In comparison, playing WL after a session with dok feels like vacation: suddenly you fly over the map and do more damage with half use of buttons - also because you are always in fight, while the dok is still busy with bridging the gap to the next target. Movement and momentum are the keys in this game, espacialy for mdps. Bad mobility = bad class.

And then your pet is dead again...

Healing debuff? What is this?

Your teammate is under pressure? So what - it's his problem, you can't (almost) do anything anyway?

[kleinbuchstabe]

And then your pet is dead again...

Healing debuff? What is this?

Your teammate is under pressure? So what - it's his problem, you can't (almost) do anything anyway?

Tell me:
how to put a melee HDB on a target you dont reach?
how to heal a teammate, when you are not in fight?

Btw dual wield dok claims to be a melee dps and not a supporter class like in shield build. They made that for sure by cutting his balls healwise. The only support ability is the channel, and as mentioned before, you can break it very simple: just exit the cone with one step to the side... or snare him and just walk away, hes not able to follow xD If you know the weakpoints, outplaying a dps dok/wp is a peace of cake. Lets not pretend that dualwield path is actually a support build, only because he still has one skill with that potential, wich is super fragile, and completely useless when geting kited.

Imo the only way to play dw dok is with the support of a mara, who can pull targets into his range.
That still is a good combo. But if you dont have one by your side, you can better play a mara by yourself instead of even think about your dok

[Kyouaku]

Thats the point. And why most people (including me) stoped playing dps dok. Its just the worst choice for MDPS atm, you will be more usefull and have more fun with every other pick. It takes a relatively lot of effort and good timing to play a DPS dok well. In comparison, playing WL after a session with dok feels like vacation: suddenly you fly over the map and do more damage with half use of buttons - also because you are always in fight, while the dok is still busy with bridging the gap to the next target. Movement and momentum are the keys in this game, espacialy for mdps. Bad mobility = bad class.

And then your pet is dead again...

Healing debuff? What is this?

Your teammate is under pressure? So what - it's his problem, you can't (almost) do anything anyway?

https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... de5324bbde

WL is actually way better then DoK at helping out teammates, it has great mobility and can peel for heals and blow up over extended DPS ez.

So in this SC you see Culleen and I, and we're both Sov DPS on our team, and my damage and kill damage are wwaayyyy higher because I can actually get to things. I can support teammates better because my mobility is good and I can be there, while a WP struggles. I can get to the enemy DPS and have skills that help me counter tanks trying to stop me, while a tank can **** down a DoK ez and even without one it can be hard.

Yeah WL has some serious weaknesses not common for melee DPS, but atleast it's a functional DPS, while DPS WP is not.

The pet dying all the time does drive me mad at times hahaha

[gersy]

Yeah WL has some serious weaknesses not common for melee DPS, but atleast it's a functional DPS, while DPS WP is not.

DPS WP isn't a functional dps? is that why it's been a core piece of almost every one of order's best 6v6 comps and staple for 12v12/18v18 inhouse sweat matches since the healer rework? that's why the top 3 6v6 teams on the server routinely ran dps WP/WL or dps WP/WH as their go-to order comp for over a year now?

like most other classes, it's only "not functional" if the person playing it is not functional is a better way to put it maybe. otherwise its quite strong tier for instanced content.

if you think otherwise you have a massive skill issue/game understanding issue. the same applies if you think that about WL, WH, WE, Mara or dps Dok. i'm sorry but there's no other way to put it than that.

[Cullenn]

Yeah WL has some serious weaknesses not common for melee DPS, but atleast it's a functional DPS, while DPS WP is not.

DPS WP isn't a functional dps? is that why it's been a core piece of almost every one of order's best 6v6 comps and staple for 12v12/18v18 inhouse sweat matches since the healer rework? that's why the top 3 6v6 teams on the server routinely ran dps WP/WL or dps WP/WH as their go-to order comp for over a year now?

like most other classes, it's only "not functional" if the person playing it is not functional is a better way to put it maybe. otherwise its quite strong tier for instanced content.

if you think otherwise you have a massive skill issue/game understanding issue. the same applies if you think that about WL, WH, WE, Mara or dps Dok. i'm sorry but there's no other way to put it than that.

The problem is that without mobility or a gap closer WP isn't that good, sure 6 vs 6 is something else, but DoK damage prayer can proc slow all the time, basically, we already do less damage than a normal dps because our full soverign set is for shield which is complete trash rn, it is a real struggle to do well in fights, however all i ask for is a gap closer, of if WP aura could slow like DoK does would be perfect.

[gersy]

Yeah WL has some serious weaknesses not common for melee DPS, but atleast it's a functional DPS, while DPS WP is not.

DPS WP isn't a functional dps? is that why it's been a core piece of almost every one of order's best 6v6 comps and staple for 12v12/18v18 inhouse sweat matches since the healer rework? that's why the top 3 6v6 teams on the server routinely ran dps WP/WL or dps WP/WH as their go-to order comp for over a year now?

like most other classes, it's only "not functional" if the person playing it is not functional is a better way to put it maybe. otherwise its quite strong tier for instanced content.

if you think otherwise you have a massive skill issue/game understanding issue. the same applies if you think that about WL, WH, WE, Mara or dps Dok. i'm sorry but there's no other way to put it than that.

The problem is that without mobility or a gap closer WP isn't that good, sure 6 vs 6 is something else, but DoK damage prayer can proc slow all the time, basically, we already do less damage than a normal dps because our full soverign set is for shield which is complete trash rn, it is a real struggle to do well in fights, however all i ask for is a gap closer, of if WP aura could slow like DoK does would be perfect.

The proposal to add charge or additional mobility was brought up many times both internally and externally before, during and after the healer rework. It was vehemently denied or ignored every time. It likely won't happen, or won't happen how you want it to.

Yes the mobility is bad in 1v1 and open rvr microscale, it is known. However in coordinated group gameplay (which this game is largely balanced around) the lack of mobility of dps dok and dps WP are almost non factors, especially in instanced content or depending on the map. Snares and other CC, as well as utility like AtD of IB or fast snare cleanses from your healers to help you stay on target are meant to come from your allies - a good group composition is core to this game.

Every class has its strengths and weaknesses. You're meant to craft your group composition in such a way that makes up for the weak points of certain classes while accentuating their strengths and matching unique abilities and utilities together to create a well rounded, strong team. This is one of the qualities which makes RoR is a unique, robust and entertaining pvp game.

The design philosophy is that dps dok and dps WP make up for their lack of mobility with their durability and utility. Especially in the case of WP you have the strongest defensive m1 in the game, sigmar's shield (which is utterly disgustingly broken atm when used properly but that's a different story), high numerical value single target armor debuff, IHD, lifetap healing via divine assault, powerful burst damage, parry buff to self/group members, str buff to self/group members, ini debuff, group absorb, proc auras, etc the list goes on.

Do other classes also have a lot of utility while also having charge? They can, yes, depends on which class we're talking about but almost none can come remotely close to the same amount. Compare with SL or choppa for example.. they've got 1-2 fairly standard buffs/debuffs (IHD, cd increaser, toughness debuff no one uses, party WS buff or AA speed buff on super long cooldowns, wounds debuff if 2h on SL) but it doesn't quite match up and they aren't have nowhere near the durability or 3s burst output under routine circumstances. Compare with current outliers like WH/WE? Arguably still more utility overall (especially party oriented/defensively speaking) although I will give heavy bonus to anti-rez of those classes as that is an unparalleled utility in some situations. Their charge is also on a mastery ability with a 60 second cooldown though, so it has its opportunity cost/downside as well. They lack ST armor debuff (burn armor is bad) and any form of ally buffs outside of WE m3, it's a good thing you can play with them in same party as you to make a powerful comp that compliments each other

[kleinbuchstabe]

well, somehow you agree, while you disagree

Yes the mobility is bad in 1v1 and open rvr microscale, it is known.
However in coordinated group gameplay (which this game is largely balanced around) the lack of mobility of dps dok and dps WP are almost non factors, especially in instanced content or depending on the map. Snares and other CC, as well as utility like AtD of IB or fast snare cleanses from your healers to help you stay on target are meant to come from your allies - a good group composition is core to this game.

So what you are saying is:
yes, mobility is a problem, BUT: with the right group composition (wich balance out his issue), in the right game content (instanced), on the right map (small), with all existing support from your teammates... it doesnt matter. So its a skill issue.

ok, i agree. With a speed pushing blorc and a target pulling mara on my side, i have a realy playable environment for the dps dok, where i can shine on topof any instanced Scenario. But in a suboptimal group composition, in the wrong game content (like oRvR), on the wrong map (large), without all existing support of your teammates... there is a mobility problem indeed, what makes him an absolute niche charackter, and for me, like i mentioned before, the last choice to pick when it comes to mdps. I think nobody disagrees with you, that in a group wich is built around dps dok/wp, it has the potential to shine. No doubt, he is a strong damage dealer for sure. But without... i would call it an issue, wich is not about skill. And to make it clear, its a not a complain that the class is not working at all. Its only about a single specific thing, wich has impact on the playability of the class in a big part of the game.

[M0rw47h]

Yeah WL has some serious weaknesses not common for melee DPS, but atleast it's a functional DPS, while DPS WP is not.

DPS WP isn't a functional dps? is that why it's been a core piece of almost every one of order's best 6v6 comps and staple for 12v12/18v18 inhouse sweat matches since the healer rework? that's why the top 3 6v6 teams on the server routinely ran dps WP/WL or dps WP/WH as their go-to order comp for over a year now?

like most other classes, it's only "not functional" if the person playing it is not functional is a better way to put it maybe. otherwise its quite strong tier for instanced content.

if you think otherwise you have a massive skill issue/game understanding issue. the same applies if you think that about WL, WH, WE, Mara or dps Dok. i'm sorry but there's no other way to put it than that.

It's point of view problem, as always when people playing different kind of content discuss balance.
For example, you seem to don't get "instanced content" translates for many (if most) players as "irrevelant" side content in oRvR game that shouldn't be even taken into account while balancing as it serves same purpose as PvE (and you don't balance game around how fast you clear Gunbad)?

[Cullenn]

DPS WP isn't a functional dps? is that why it's been a core piece of almost every one of order's best 6v6 comps and staple for 12v12/18v18 inhouse sweat matches since the healer rework? that's why the top 3 6v6 teams on the server routinely ran dps WP/WL or dps WP/WH as their go-to order comp for over a year now?

like most other classes, it's only "not functional" if the person playing it is not functional is a better way to put it maybe. otherwise its quite strong tier for instanced content.

if you think otherwise you have a massive skill issue/game understanding issue. the same applies if you think that about WL, WH, WE, Mara or dps Dok. i'm sorry but there's no other way to put it than that.

The problem is that without mobility or a gap closer WP isn't that good, sure 6 vs 6 is something else, but DoK damage prayer can proc slow all the time, basically, we already do less damage than a normal dps because our full soverign set is for shield which is complete trash rn, it is a real struggle to do well in fights, however all i ask for is a gap closer, of if WP aura could slow like DoK does would be perfect.

The proposal to add charge or additional mobility was brought up many times both internally and externally before, during and after the healer rework. It was vehemently denied or ignored every time. It likely won't happen, or won't happen how you want it to.

Yes the mobility is bad in 1v1 and open rvr microscale, it is known. However in coordinated group gameplay (which this game is largely balanced around) the lack of mobility of dps dok and dps WP are almost non factors, especially in instanced content or depending on the map. Snares and other CC, as well as utility like AtD of IB or fast snare cleanses from your healers to help you stay on target are meant to come from your allies - a good group composition is core to this game.

Every class has its strengths and weaknesses. You're meant to craft your group composition in such a way that makes up for the weak points of certain classes while accentuating their strengths and matching unique abilities and utilities together to create a well rounded, strong team. This is one of the qualities which makes RoR is a unique, robust and entertaining pvp game.

The design philosophy is that dps dok and dps WP make up for their lack of mobility with their durability and utility. Especially in the case of WP you have the strongest defensive m1 in the game, sigmar's shield (which is utterly disgustingly broken atm when used properly but that's a different story), high numerical value single target armor debuff, IHD, lifetap healing via divine assault, powerful burst damage, parry buff to self/group members, str buff to self/group members, ini debuff, group absorb, proc auras, etc the list goes on.

Do other classes also have a lot of utility while also having charge? They can, yes, depends on which class we're talking about but almost none can come remotely close to the same amount. Compare with SL or choppa for example.. they've got 1-2 fairly standard buffs/debuffs (IHD, cd increaser, toughness debuff no one uses, party WS buff or AA speed buff on super long cooldowns, wounds debuff if 2h on SL) but it doesn't quite match up and they aren't have nowhere near the durability or 3s burst output under routine circumstances. Compare with current outliers like WH/WE? Arguably still more utility overall (especially party oriented/defensively speaking) although I will give heavy bonus to anti-rez of those classes as that is an unparalleled utility in some situations. Their charge is also on a mastery ability with a 60 second cooldown though, so it has its opportunity cost/downside as well. They lack ST armor debuff (burn armor is bad) and any form of ally buffs outside of WE m3, it's a good thing you can play with them in same party as you to make a powerful comp that compliments each other

I mean... Thank you for your answer but, i'm just speaking about mobility of this class, i know the game is more or less balanced better in group fighting, but if RDPS can solo roam, even marauders and tanks sometimes solo roam, why can't a melee dps as WP/DOK get a gap closer to adress that? the game isn't group fighting everytime, WE is a proof of that.