Give WP/DoK a gap closer.

[Kyouaku]

Seems like a good time to jump in and state what I thought was obvious:

You (DPS DoK and DPS WP) are not MDPS. You are an off-spec for a healer class. You have advantages they don't. You have weaknesses they don't. And that's okay. Its called variety.

That used to be the case, and I miss the time when it was.

[kleinbuchstabe]

That's just a bad class being carried by the team though. If they ran a different DPS in Rvr or SCs, it would be way better.

And under 1% of people can run with people who play perfectly in SCs, isnt it cruel and unfair to make a class and justify it being bad because it can do okay in a situation most people, the near entirety of people who play the class, will never be in?


And lastly, You are ignoring my points of inferiority: Why not 2x muras for 2x pulls, a WE that does more dmaage and can get where it needs to be without perfect team support. It can KD if you have tanks that wont kd appropriately as well. Why not run any other DPS? They all are much better for various reasons.

After playing order and seeing it from the other side, DPS Doks are absolute jokes in SCs and rvr, and even if one can do well with perfect team support, any DPS would do well in that situation and the team running it would do a lot better if they did not have the DoK(Imagine if a team sjut ran 2x muras for 2x pulls and charges instead ha). It's kill pressure is just so weak and it's so easily controlled.

I feel the same way.
But i think you can give up here. Its always the same, when people dont play the class by themselves, they can not/ dont want to see the issue. Because from outside it maybe looks fine. Look at the poeple who call the dok/WP S-tier... and dont understand, that this is only about the player, who just push the class to the limit by playing good. But at the same time, he would shine even more with any other dps choice.

And thats what i recomend to you: Just play another class. Level up another mdps.
Stop fighting for it. Haters gona hate. Ask how many 80+ Slayers waiting on their bench. Same goes for dps dok. I only use mine for PvE these days. For pvp i just pick something better. Its good to have more than one character, so you can jsut swap if one is in a bad state, or just not playable cause you dont have the perfect carry group atm. Relax and play WE, or Mara, you will like it and have more fun, no need to keep suffering with your dok.

[Cullenn]

That's just a bad class being carried by the team though. If they ran a different DPS in Rvr or SCs, it would be way better.

And under 1% of people can run with people who play perfectly in SCs, isnt it cruel and unfair to make a class and justify it being bad because it can do okay in a situation most people, the near entirety of people who play the class, will never be in?


And lastly, You are ignoring my points of inferiority: Why not 2x muras for 2x pulls, a WE that does more dmaage and can get where it needs to be without perfect team support. It can KD if you have tanks that wont kd appropriately as well. Why not run any other DPS? They all are much better for various reasons.

After playing order and seeing it from the other side, DPS Doks are absolute jokes in SCs and rvr, and even if one can do well with perfect team support, any DPS would do well in that situation and the team running it would do a lot better if they did not have the DoK(Imagine if a team sjut ran 2x muras for 2x pulls and charges instead ha). It's kill pressure is just so weak and it's so easily controlled.

I feel the same way.
But i think you can give up here. Its always the same, when people dont play the class by themselves, they can not/ dont want to see the issue. Because from outside it maybe looks fine. Look at the poeple who call the dok/WP S-tier... and dont understand, that this is only about the player, who just push the class to the limit by playing good. But at the same time, he would shine even more with any other dps choice.

And thats what i recomend to you: Just play another class. Level up another mdps.
Stop fighting for it. Haters gona hate. Ask how many 80+ Slayers waiting on their bench. Same goes for dps dok. I only use mine for PvE these days. For pvp i just pick something better. Its good to have more than one character, so you can jsut swap if one is in a bad state, or just not playable cause you dont have the perfect carry group atm. Relax and play WE, or Mara, you will like it and have more fun, no need to keep suffering with your dok.

Maybe you are right... It's sad, but i wonder how ppl call a mdps S-tier with 0 mobility and knockdown lol, maybe the devs see this and do something good, i hope.

[M0rw47h]

Maybe you are right... It's sad, but i wonder how ppl call a mdps S-tier with 0 mobility and knockdown lol, maybe the devs see this and do something good, i hope.

The fun part is: they are right and you're right as well. Both "sides" are refering to different content as endgame, around which game should be balanced.

For example what happens in City Siege or Ranked is completly irrevelant for me, because I've stopped playing that kind of "content", before gersy even started playing. Meanwhile for him, it's content thats the most important (despite being completly ignored by majority of players). As I said before, point of view issue.

[Cullenn]

Maybe you are right... It's sad, but i wonder how ppl call a mdps S-tier with 0 mobility and knockdown lol, maybe the devs see this and do something good, i hope.

The fun part is: they are right and you're right as well. Both "sides" are refering to different content as endgame, around which game should be balanced.

For example what happens in City Siege or Ranked is completly irrevelant for me, because I've stopped playing that kind of "content", before gersy even started playing. Meanwhile for him, it's content thats the most important (despite being completly ignored by majority of players). As I said before, point of view issue.

Well, if they want to fix that blob of Reckoning and Ranged of reckoning issue, the only way i see for that to work is to nerf WE and give all classes an appropriate gap closer/escape, since overpowered classes like WE atm makes numbers the only option to fight them.

[nocturnalguest]

Well, if they want to fix that blob of Reckoning and Ranged of reckoning issue, the only way i see for that to work is to nerf WE and give all classes an appropriate gap closer/escape, since overpowered classes like WE atm makes numbers the only option to fight them.

What you say is somehow relevant only for solo roaming, pugging and completely irrelevant for proper group play.

Totally agree with M0rw47h, its just pov issue, both sides of discussion are completely correct.

My own vision (got decent relevant exp as WP and quite low exp as undergeared DoK):
a) i think their dps specs are completely fine as is and them having no gap closer (charge) along with no KD are solid downsides for having auras, lifetap, rez, cleanse etc. they are also quite limited with itemization (struggle to reach pure dps stats) which is fair trade off too.
b) both dps WP/DoK are just monstrocities in proper comps, its really great to play, fun, engaging, strong af.
c) id say WP turned out to be a bit cooler, especially playing around divine impact nukes. drowning in blood feels clunkier to utilize, more strict resources management (didnt run comps much as dps dok, could be my skill issue)
d) i dont think gap closer (=charge) would make them super broken for group play. not gonna change much if balance team cater to solo problems here. no comp choice will change, no damage increase/decrease, no lifetap/heal affected. yes, agree, both classes are already overbuffed and S+ tier for group play however i cant imagine anything gamebreaking to happen if they get one, they already got snare/root break which is more mdps defining ability then charge.

Also a bit of reflection about d). Issues that are mentioned from solo/pug perspective are pretty obvious but completely irrelevant as there is no balance in solo/pug anyways. Are there any issues with gap closing in group play those specs have? No, there are none. So what will charge change for group play if they get it? It will open up a huge possibility of them to peel out, they will be able to break free and charge out. Surely thats very big of a deal, boosts their surviveability opening up an option to get away from focus quickly but (!) unlike shield specs it wont anyhow overcomplicate combat as a whole, they still have to be built full glass, they still fullfil proper DPS spot with some additional utility (another design issue is that id love to see other pure DPS classes buffed too, so pure dps classes will be also high diversity specs wise and engaging to play, like for the refernce id call aoe orvr choppa and aoe orvr wl gameplay pretty dull and need less of such) so you counter them same way you counter regular DPS with a charge and snare/root break. Lifetaps wont overlap with this, you either charge or channel. Both specs are already total meta so /shrug

So a real question is - will group play bear increase of dps WP/DoK surviveability? I guess so. Maybe i miss something so open to change my mind

[Cullenn]

Well, if they want to fix that blob of Reckoning and Ranged of reckoning issue, the only way i see for that to work is to nerf WE and give all classes an appropriate gap closer/escape, since overpowered classes like WE atm makes numbers the only option to fight them.

What you say is somehow relevant only for solo roaming, pugging and completely irrelevant for proper group play.

Totally agree with M0rw47h, its just pov issue, both sides of discussion are completely correct.

My own vision (got decent relevant exp as WP and quite low exp as undergeared DoK):
a) i think their dps specs are completely fine as is and them having no gap closer (charge) along with no KD are solid downsides for having auras, lifetap, rez, cleanse etc. they are also quite limited with itemization (struggle to reach pure dps stats) which is fair trade off too.
b) both dps WP/DoK are just monstrocities in proper comps, its really great to play, fun, engaging, strong af.
c) id say WP turned out to be a bit cooler, especially playing around divine impact nukes. drowning in blood feels clunkier to utilize, more strict resources management (didnt run comps much as dps dok, could be my skill issue)
d) i dont think gap closer (=charge) would make them super broken for group play. not gonna change much if balance team cater to solo problems here. no comp choice will change, no damage increase/decrease, no lifetap/heal affected. yes, agree, both classes are already overbuffed and S+ tier for group play however i cant imagine anything gamebreaking to happen if they get one, they already got snare/root break which is more mdps defining ability then charge.

Also a bit of reflection about d). Issues that are mentioned from solo/pug perspective are pretty obvious but completely irrelevant as there is no balance in solo/pug anyways. Are there any issues with gap closing in group play those specs have? No, there are none. So what will charge change for group play if they get it? It will open up a huge possibility of them to peel out, they will be able to break free and charge out. Surely thats very big of a deal, boosts their surviveability opening up an option to get away from focus quickly but (!) unlike shield specs it wont anyhow overcomplicate combat as a whole, they still have to be built full glass, they still fullfil proper DPS spot with some additional utility (another design issue is that id love to see other pure DPS classes buffed too, so pure dps classes will be also high diversity specs wise and engaging to play, like for the refernce id call aoe orvr choppa and aoe orvr wl gameplay pretty dull and need less of such) so you counter them same way you counter regular DPS with a charge and snare/root break. Lifetaps wont overlap with this, you either charge or channel. Both specs are already total meta so /shrug

So a real question is - will group play bear increase of dps WP/DoK surviveability? I guess so. Maybe i miss something so open to change my mind

Then just give them a gap closer for small scale/solo roam. Most RDPS can do solo roam, magus, squigs, shamans, etc. Let WP have one too then.

[nocturnalguest]

Then just give them a gap closer for small scale/solo roam. Most RDPS can do solo roam, magus, squigs, shamans, etc. Let WP have one too then.

Its nowhere near bad specs for solo roaming, especially WP, so we have to be honest here too lol. Also it doesnt work like this, you just cant be serious. There is no option to just give them this or that for solo roam, you will give "an overbuffed" class yet another tool which will affect other gameplay (group) too and affect quite significantly. DPS healers dominate solo scene already big times and will do so even more extremely if you dont provide lots of selfsustain, regen, absorbs or whatever else for other specs/classes.

And here, look, i personally have 0 issues with WEs, be they def, double/triple/quadrupel leaping all around. But e.g. you have. So with your logic and your pov, imagine someone ask to just straight up buff WE with another tool with nothing being taken off. Same logic, same situation - too many tools for 1 class, especially for classes that have 3 different specs and completely meta, welcome in any size of group anyday. I be fine with that, i dont like perfect mirror balance then everything is unified with zero outliners but what about your fellow solo heroes folks who are present on forums en mass? Tears will definitely flow... of an ocean size lol. Obvious. Like imagine if someone ask for a charge on WE/WH cause damn why not, IHD for WL/engi/magi, none conditional KD for slayer/choppa etc. Just cmon... A circus

I totally get what half of people say here who oppose your suggestion. They are damn correct too, cant dismiss or debunk their points. On a serious note and looking from balance team pov completely obvious that overally dps WP/DoK are highely likely to get nerfs and definitely not buffs or other tools so weight your efforts creating another thread with all this, you got a great advice in the beginning from Giladar.

[Kyouaku]

I totally get what half of people say here who oppose your suggestion. They are damn correct too, cant dismiss or debunk their points. On a serious note and looking from balance team pov completely obvious that overally dps WP/DoK are highely likely to get nerfs and definitely not buffs or other tools so weight your efforts creating another thread with all this, you got a great advice in the beginning from Giladar.

I have several times, but you jsut ignore them.

The class has had most of it's heal utility removed but lacks the tools to be an effective DPS agaisnt decent enemies. One tank can easily stop a DPS DoK/WP from being effecitve without much effort.

Using the heal skills it has are a DPS loss, while pulls, charges, stealth, leaps ect are DPS gains, in addition to having better tactics and gear on other classes.. A group is already much better off without a DPS DoK and a DPS WP in it, I do SCs all the time and fighting against them is so easy and they are by far the least effective DPS each side has. The pulls and being able to actually stick or get to a target is far more important then a DPS loss channel for a DPS.....Soloroam they are so easy to counter if you know what to do, ranged jsut wins

You keep saying they are so good, but they are almost never in SCs because they are not actually good.

People see videos of these cherry picked fights from solo roaming DoKs that are clipped to not show how the shammy they are fighting already killed 2 people and was at half life before they dogpiled in while it didnt have CDs, or these long drawnout fights when they have support, and the fights look cool, but most other classes would of done a better job and won those fights easier... And wouldnt need to clip videos and could beat ranged classes 1 on 1 ha.

[nocturnalguest]

I have several times, but you jsut ignore them.

The class has had most of it's heal utility removed but lacks the tools to be an effective DPS agaisnt decent enemies. One tank can easily stop a DPS DoK/WP from being effecitve without much effort.

Using the heal skills it has are a DPS loss, while pulls, charges, stealth, leaps ect are DPS gains, in addition to having better tactics and gear on other classes.. A group is already much better off without a DPS DoK and a DPS WP in it, I do SCs all the time and fighting against them is so easy and they are by far the least effective DPS each side has. The pulls and being able to actually stick or get to a target is far more important then a DPS loss channel for a DPS.....Soloroam they are so easy to counter if you know what to do, ranged jsut wins

You keep saying they are so good, but they are almost never in SCs because they are not actually good.

People see videos of these cherry picked fights from solo roaming DoKs that are clipped to not show how the shammy they are fighting already killed 2 people and was at half life before they dogpiled in while it didnt have CDs, or these long drawnout fights when they have support, and the fights look cool, but most other classes would of done a better job and won those fights easier... And wouldnt need to clip videos and could beat ranged classes 1 on 1 ha.

Well i was actually replying to Cullenn so i wasnt involved into discussion about your "points" as i see them unsupported by any data while also contradicting my experienece and actually rather your feelings (no offense) so i refrained from comments.
It took me no further then to press few buttons on killboard to find this one, its literally a second 6v6 match on first page atm https://killboard.returnofreckoning.com ... 2247ce2131
For me this looks like a solid prove that you are not right