Give WP/DoK a gap closer.

[kleinbuchstabe]

I've been to organized city matches on a DPS WP multiple times. The class performs very well, but it is the better of the two between DPS DoK and DPS WP. I've played against good DPS DoKs in the same environments. I've played against good shield DoKs too, and with good shield WPs.

The thing is that this "carried" idea you have is a fallacy. What you're describing is not being carried by your team, it's building a comp that synergizes with each other. I don't know what you even envision in your mind when you say carried, and I don't know what your gaming group is like, or how they prefer to play. There are many 40-50 year old players on this server who think they understand more about the game than they do, and perhaps they are simply unwilling to give your DoK as it is currently a chance? Or are we talking about a pug environment, where you have a random setup and you physically can't decide your own group compsition? Are these things you're supposed to consider when you talk about balance?

Ok i will just react the same way to mirror you:
The thing is that this "synergy" idea you have is a fallacy. What you're describing is not synergie, it is being carried, because you need a very specific group setup, to lift this class up to a level of playability, that other mdps have innately.
Call it synergy if this sounds better for you, but the sugarcoating wont change the truth of that issue.
Nobody is unwilling to give a chance. We all agree that every other dps is a better choice, IF we dont have the perfect setup available coincidently, whats super rare because we are a small guild. And thats the difference between theory-build and reality check, and proves my point. I will repeat myself, because it seems to me that you dont (want to) get it: Im not saying the class is unplayable. Im saying that the playabiltiy of the dps dok depends alot on a very specific group setup, wich is not the case for all the other mdps. What makes him the worst choice to pick. And the reason for that, is his immobility, wich could be improved by a gap closer. Thats the core of the topic, and i agree with that.

Dont know what city matches you played. But when i ran city in an organized warband the last time (years ago), there was no place for dps doks generaly because guess what: every other mdps is a better choice, espacialy for a warband. Thats what city is: warband gameplay. And nothing changed about that. Imo the worst environment for a dualwield dok is a warband, since you only have one AoE skill, that you can spam only with a tactic. Cant imagine a more boring thing to do. And its 100% a wasted slot, because every Mara or choppa will do a better job in warband play than a dualwield dok, proving my point again. But im not talking about a gap closer here anymore, so this is offtopic allready. Same goes for shield path, thats not the point of this thread.

[live4treasure]

I've been to organized city matches on a DPS WP multiple times. The class performs very well, but it is the better of the two between DPS DoK and DPS WP. I've played against good DPS DoKs in the same environments. I've played against good shield DoKs too, and with good shield WPs.

The thing is that this "carried" idea you have is a fallacy. What you're describing is not being carried by your team, it's building a comp that synergizes with each other. I don't know what you even envision in your mind when you say carried, and I don't know what your gaming group is like, or how they prefer to play. There are many 40-50 year old players on this server who think they understand more about the game than they do, and perhaps they are simply unwilling to give your DoK as it is currently a chance? Or are we talking about a pug environment, where you have a random setup and you physically can't decide your own group compsition? Are these things you're supposed to consider when you talk about balance?

Ok i will just react the same way to mirror you:
The thing is that this "synergy" idea you have is a fallacy. What you're describing is not synergie, it is being carried, because you need a very specific group setup, to lift this class up to a level of playability, that other mdps have innately.
Call it synergy if this sounds better for you, but the sugarcoating wont change the truth of that issue.
Nobody is unwilling to give a chance. We all agree that every other dps is a better choice, IF we dont have the perfect setup available coincidently, whats super rare because we are a small guild. And thats the difference between theory-build and reality check, and proves my point. I will repeat myself, because it seems to me that you dont (want to) get it: Im not saying the class is unplayable. Im saying that the playabiltiy of the dps dok depends alot on a very specific group setup, wich is not the case for all the other mdps. What makes him the worst choice to pick. And the reason for that, is his immobility, wich could be improved by a gap closer. Thats the core of the topic, and i agree with that.

Dont know what city matches you played. But when i ran city in an organized warband the last time (years ago), there was no place for dps doks generaly because guess what: every other mdps is a better choice, espacialy for a warband. Thats what city is: warband gameplay. And nothing changed about that. Imo the worst environment for a dualwield dok is a warband, since you only have one AoE skill, that you can spam only with a tactic. Cant imagine a more boring thing to do. And its 100% a wasted slot, because every Mara or choppa will do a better job in warband play than a dualwield dok, proving my point again. And im not talking about a gap closer here anymore, so this is offtopic allready. Same goes for shield path, thats not the point of this thread.

I understand your specific situation now. It's unfortunate that you do not have the option of building a comp to play your DoK the way you want to. The thing is there are two ways to solve your problem. You either make sure you can reliably build a proper group composition that works with your DoK when you want to play it. Or what you are doing now, which is to adjust the archetype to suit your needs, and the needs of people who also do not exist, or refuse to exist, in an environment that lets them mitigate the drawbacks. You're choosing the second option. It is what it is, I guess.

[nocturnalguest]

So you did not choose to start being honest, I said that a DoK can do well if carried by its team(As can any DPS), so you are now arguing against yourself while you pretend I have said the things you have lied about me saying.

Will you apologize for strawmanning me?

You just keep making stuff up, I have hundreds of games as a DPS DoK in comms as a 6 man, and I have been more then clear that I think it is bad there as well, why just lie and say I am not....?

In SCs, a ranged DPS, or a DPS with good means to get on target, or other utility like a pull, is ffffffffffaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr more useful then a slow one that can be easily managed by a tank lol(And ****, even other DPS can easily counterplay it). It used to have the awesome devour essence to counter this, and utility to make it super worth, but with a lot of it being removed but the bad mobility remaining leaves it in a bad spot

You keep lying about things I have said, please stop.

Hahaha, why so salty? Seriously, the hell im reading lol, is it some reading comphension of your or what? Where you see "lies"? Wasnt this your own DoK balance thread here you cite at your post #29? Doesnt it contains a wording in first paragraph saying this one:

and lacking in damage

Or i somehow missread #48 with this gem

It's kill pressure is just so weak and it's so easily controlled

Your guildmates in a pug group (i agree you call them that, suboptimal comp, not much of 6v6 exp etc) didnt manage to, somehow.

Or maybe its about pug issue i mention? Not sure, not sure, especially looking at #43 with

DPS DoK clearly needs some help, keeping it bad because people who play a dead mode use 1 is horrible for those of us who have them and want to use them for the modes that actually are in the game: SCs or RvR.

However now you are playing 80% of times as organised, have most DoK exp ITT, no RvR mentioned anymore. Well, ok, good for you but not sure why you even mention that, to support your claims of how bad DPS DoK is? Thats not how it works.

Werent you providing WL example hence ive made a comment? Your #34 post

Who the hell is this "train of thoughts" huh, lol

Ill refrain from commenting rest of general cringe you type without putting even a glimpse of thought into those random claims tho or facts like, for example, you claim i ignore something while leaving a question i made for choppa unanswered as those comments will highely likely only lead to boring school level banters (i doubt you are in a mood for discussion), but im definitely open for that too, so just let me know if you wanna get some for "pulls winning fights", "running double maras" etc. I will have no joy and generally cant be arsed to explain much but if you insist lets do that.

However i have to note that as for just DPS DoK itself (not general grand scheme of things we talk about atm, like its overall role and performance) i dont think we have anything to debate about as there is no contradiction between what you, others or even me say and actually i mentioned everything in my post too (gear issues, dib issue, pug vs org issues etc). What i didnt actually cover is DE nerf but its pretty pointless discussion imo. Also in general im convinced that balance discussion in a manner of class A has B but class C has D is complete piece of crap, in all seriousness we should talk about role and performance. A point that DPS WP/DoK is comp dependant and pug unfriendly is clear and nobody argue on that.

And also here ill mention this one, worths to reach consensus on few takes

you need a very specific group setup, to lift this class up to a level of playability, that other mdps have innately.

Thats an over exaggerated statement. aSW, 2h SL for example are also incredibly comp depandant and completely pug unfriendly, i wouldnt dare to pug on 2h SL and hope for effecitive results without WL/DPS WP/WH and SM with winds and healers i know. So DPS DoK/WP are not he only classes like that. And im not even touching some rdps like engi/magi Agree with rest of post tho, besides general statement about DoK/WP being worst pick DPS which is only semitrue if we dont consider fully optimized org gameplay.

Are you... Serious? I see a problem in a melee dps healer but not in WE? just because i'm asking a melee dps that does not have the same damage as a normal dps and self heal can be easily countered with m1 parry of dps or moving away, while WE can literally run away from 6 man fights, regen, do endless damages, and be though as a tank? Are you serious? This is completly unbeliavable man, i'm sorry.

Yes, im serious! Your WP has all the damage, its the same as regular DPS but it wont perform so well in pug environment as some other pure DPS like WL. Also i believe you missunderstand me with WE example as im telling you that main complains for WE can be summariezed into a point that its overloaded with tools (stealth, regen, absorb, backflip, leap etc) and you also consider WEs broken, so im saying that i see a contradiction that for your class you ask for more tools without something being taken off (so asking for a pure buff) while on the other hand for another class you see an issue. And im saying that this situation is similar, there is no difference what you overload with tools, WE or WP, such approach should be by your logic considered as flawed and not balanced. Im completely sure that there will be many soloers/puggers/casuals who will be very unhappy with you getting a charge on DPS WP.
Also for a note, there is almost no way you will escape decent 6men as WE, only if you got caught in some nice spot that you can use objectives or terrain to easily get away into safety. Decent 2-2-2 or 1-3-2 group will just burst it down np if manage to catch so it cant run away as you say but it obviously able to not even pop out and completely dodge a fight being stealthed.





tl;dr funny enough that i actually see no problems for DoK/WP getting this damn charge that this topic is all about so everyone is happy lol. This part is especially cool hahaha.

A little bit of friendly-fire i would even dare to say lmao

[kleinbuchstabe]

you need a very specific group setup, to lift this class up to a level of playability, that other mdps have innately.

Thats an over exaggerated statement. aSW, 2h SL for example are also incredibly comp depandant and completely pug unfriendly, i wouldnt dare to pug on 2h SL and hope for effecitive results without WL/DPS WP/WH and SM with winds and healers i know. So DPS DoK/WP are not he only classes like that. And im not even touching some rdps like engi/magi Agree with rest of post tho, besides general statement about DoK/WP being worst pick DPS which is only semitrue if we dont consider fully optimized org gameplay.

haha ok, you come around here with Slayer, whos in the second worst mdps state, fair enough. I will bite, but still i think theres a difference. For the sake of simplicity i stay on dok instead of expanding everything for WP.

For dok, there is only one realy good tank choice, wich is a BO with speed buff ability. Or any tank with full sov defset buff, but this is a suboptimal set choice for smallscale, because you waste tanks dps. And for DD, there is only the pulling mara, who can make up for his immobility shortcomings. Thats why i say its very specific. If we realy talk serioulsly about eliminating the immobility shortcomings, then this is not the best - it is the only way to go. Otherwise you wont see a dok reaching the backline alive against not-braindead rdps players. There is only one flee, and one range detaunt

Slayer doesnt have these kind problems. Sure, an IB who pushes his AA would be the best support for him, but he would still work with Kotbs or SM without any issues. And DD wise, you listed any other melee DPS classes here yourself , wich means that everyone of them would be fine for him. So, now compare the two benchwarmers, group setup wise.

Maybe im exaggerating a little bit. Because dok still has a flee button, a speed proc on the finisher, and a speed proc for RR points. So there are some tools to compensate by chance. OK. But again, im not saying that the class is unplayble, and never did! I just claim that hes the worst mdps choice in most situations, because of his lack of mobility. And thats why im pro gap closer, in the dual wield path.

[nocturnalguest]

Yeah, deal. Now this all clear and correct beside one thing still bothering me - i cant see unbearable downsides to pair DPS DoK with WE or choppa either Take a look in that 6v6 i linked, there is a chopper paired with mdok.

a bit off topic but slayer tho is debatbale even in worse situation, as 2h you will have to spam spellbreaker stripping stuff and playing an enabler role for true burst DPS, both WL (armor debuff) and WP (armor debuff) fits this pretty well. For that you need winds (but need coordination cause if tanks spam theirs on focused then they lower your damage), its not gonna be so optimal with kotbs (but possible and pretty fine in regular scs, ok agree). All WP/WL/SL will spike better with IB BoG, so you will have some minor issues with KD as you gonna take SnB IB (but then its somewhat cool cause you can go with blissful now tho) with conditional one (so slayer goes red and KDs himself) and lower assist dmg so same way you waste tank dps. if such group is not optimized then 2h sl just gonna run scary 2h stick and not do much as its own killing potential vs decent group alone is kinda lacking (same as mdok, clear as day u soloq and get rekt, while you can soloq on mara and be completely fine).

asw too, old comp with sm-wl is still functional. played my last 6v6 in such comp (as kotbs) at 2023 (iirc) with Fenryl on asw. oohhhh, opponents had to sweat alot, fast swaps, reaction required to survive is insane. you cant do that to such toptier extent if you just soloq regular weekend warfront

[Cullenn]

This thread is essentially a bunch of people with no understanding of why DPS WP/DoK is good talking about how bad it is, with the voices of those who actually know what they are talking about being drowned out in a sea of conjecture and bad faith arguments.

What this is, is a bunch of solo players angry that they get killed in 1v1s against ranged classes, and trying to make arguments under the veneer of a teamplay perspective in order to try to "legitimize" their demands.

It's sad to see that we've gotten to the point that those of you who I am talking about, are willing to pretend like you know what you are talking about in order to get your way.

Initially, I wanted to make a detailed post trying to explain exactly what unique advantages this class has that balances out the lack of mobility, but I think it's a pointless endeavour with the crowd here. I however hope the balance team doesn't cave to the demands of the maliciously ignorant.

Maliciously ignorant? Are you satisfied how things are? They already killed the shield build, removed snare, buffed WE to the sky, and we are the maliciously ignorant? is it so wrong to ask for some balancing? No one here called you that, if you don't want to be part of it just ignore the post, don't go on calling others that, is that such a big problem for you?

DPS WP is:
S tier in scenarios
S tier in city
High B tier in warbands

DoK is:
S tier in scenarios
Low A tier in city
B tier in warbands

The only game mode they struggle in is clearly solo, which is not a game mode that's balanced around, because this is a team-based rvr game, and the extent of your contribution as a solo player within the campaign is carrying boxes to the keep while warbands fight for main objectives and try to win enough to undermine enemy morale.

Yes, I am satisfied with the state of the class. Why aren't you satisfied?

Because you got killed in 1v1 by a rdps.

And for the record, shield WP and DoK are also S tier in city. Nothing has been killed. You are simply trying to make it work in a scenario it wasn't designed for. In a scenario the game isn't designed for, frankly.

But you've been told this repeatedly.

That's why i'm making the post, they buffed we, nerfed wp to the ground, shield WP is killed, ever saw the Kiphuss posts of shield WP underperforming and some ppl refusing to accept it even in pve? It is not too bad, but it's the worst mdps atm, have you ever played with these classes? they are not fine man, with all respect, i think you are delusional. All i ask for is a gap closer, that's all.

[Cullenn]

So you did not choose to start being honest, I said that a DoK can do well if carried by its team(As can any DPS), so you are now arguing against yourself while you pretend I have said the things you have lied about me saying.

Will you apologize for strawmanning me?

You just keep making stuff up, I have hundreds of games as a DPS DoK in comms as a 6 man, and I have been more then clear that I think it is bad there as well, why just lie and say I am not....?

In SCs, a ranged DPS, or a DPS with good means to get on target, or other utility like a pull, is ffffffffffaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrr more useful then a slow one that can be easily managed by a tank lol(And ****, even other DPS can easily counterplay it). It used to have the awesome devour essence to counter this, and utility to make it super worth, but with a lot of it being removed but the bad mobility remaining leaves it in a bad spot

You keep lying about things I have said, please stop.

Hahaha, why so salty? Seriously, the hell im reading lol, is it some reading comphension of your or what? Where you see "lies"? Wasnt this your own DoK balance thread here you cite at your post #29? Doesnt it contains a wording in first paragraph saying this one:

and lacking in damage

Or i somehow missread #48 with this gem

It's kill pressure is just so weak and it's so easily controlled

Your guildmates in a pug group (i agree you call them that, suboptimal comp, not much of 6v6 exp etc) didnt manage to, somehow.

Or maybe its about pug issue i mention? Not sure, not sure, especially looking at #43 with

DPS DoK clearly needs some help, keeping it bad because people who play a dead mode use 1 is horrible for those of us who have them and want to use them for the modes that actually are in the game: SCs or RvR.

However now you are playing 80% of times as organised, have most DoK exp ITT, no RvR mentioned anymore. Well, ok, good for you but not sure why you even mention that, to support your claims of how bad DPS DoK is? Thats not how it works.

Werent you providing WL example hence ive made a comment? Your #34 post

Who the hell is this "train of thoughts" huh, lol

Ill refrain from commenting rest of general cringe you type without putting even a glimpse of thought into those random claims tho or facts like, for example, you claim i ignore something while leaving a question i made for choppa unanswered as those comments will highely likely only lead to boring school level banters (i doubt you are in a mood for discussion), but im definitely open for that too, so just let me know if you wanna get some for "pulls winning fights", "running double maras" etc. I will have no joy and generally cant be arsed to explain much but if you insist lets do that.

However i have to note that as for just DPS DoK itself (not general grand scheme of things we talk about atm, like its overall role and performance) i dont think we have anything to debate about as there is no contradiction between what you, others or even me say and actually i mentioned everything in my post too (gear issues, dib issue, pug vs org issues etc). What i didnt actually cover is DE nerf but its pretty pointless discussion imo. Also in general im convinced that balance discussion in a manner of class A has B but class C has D is complete piece of crap, in all seriousness we should talk about role and performance. A point that DPS WP/DoK is comp dependant and pug unfriendly is clear and nobody argue on that.

And also here ill mention this one, worths to reach consensus on few takes

you need a very specific group setup, to lift this class up to a level of playability, that other mdps have innately.

Thats an over exaggerated statement. aSW, 2h SL for example are also incredibly comp depandant and completely pug unfriendly, i wouldnt dare to pug on 2h SL and hope for effecitive results without WL/DPS WP/WH and SM with winds and healers i know. So DPS DoK/WP are not he only classes like that. And im not even touching some rdps like engi/magi Agree with rest of post tho, besides general statement about DoK/WP being worst pick DPS which is only semitrue if we dont consider fully optimized org gameplay.

Are you... Serious? I see a problem in a melee dps healer but not in WE? just because i'm asking a melee dps that does not have the same damage as a normal dps and self heal can be easily countered with m1 parry of dps or moving away, while WE can literally run away from 6 man fights, regen, do endless damages, and be though as a tank? Are you serious? This is completly unbeliavable man, i'm sorry.

Yes, im serious! Your WP has all the damage, its the same as regular DPS but it wont perform so well in pug environment as some other pure DPS like WL. Also i believe you missunderstand me with WE example as im telling you that main complains for WE can be summariezed into a point that its overloaded with tools (stealth, regen, absorb, backflip, leap etc) and you also consider WEs broken, so im saying that i see a contradiction that for your class you ask for more tools without something being taken off (so asking for a pure buff) while on the other hand for another class you see an issue. And im saying that this situation is similar, there is no difference what you overload with tools, WE or WP, such approach should be by your logic considered as flawed and not balanced. Im completely sure that there will be many soloers/puggers/casuals who will be very unhappy with you getting a charge on DPS WP.
Also for a note, there is almost no way you will escape decent 6men as WE, only if you got caught in some nice spot that you can use objectives or terrain to easily get away into safety. Decent 2-2-2 or 1-3-2 group will just burst it down np if manage to catch so it cant run away as you say but it obviously able to not even pop out and completely dodge a fight being stealthed.





tl;dr funny enough that i actually see no problems for DoK/WP getting this damn charge that this topic is all about so everyone is happy lol. This part is especially cool hahaha.

A little bit of friendly-fire i would even dare to say lmao

Yes, i'm asking for more tools, because my class isn't overbuffed like you say, shield WP for example is dead, devs destroyed it, it was completly fine before and Kiphuss posts showing it is underperforming show the class issue, and you say WP has the same damage as a normal dps? seriously? have you seen the difference between a WP and a WL or WH both with sov? WP with a gap closer won't be overloaded with tools, it has no knockdown, no invisible, no leap, no self punt, and the WP self-heal as i said, is easily counterable, not passive like we, so your problem isn't with a solo class being overpowered? have you seen dps shaman? they roam solo alot, why can't WP have a single gap closerl, uh? Just a knockdown or punt to counter and gg, you are crazy, with all respect my man, even DoK has better gap closer because the damage covenant gives slow.

[gersy]

it's crazy that these type of threads are still going with the same back and forth.

in the past dozen threads on this topic and similar topics we've had multiple top exp/knowledge/skill players (both of the class(es) in question and otherwise) telling you all repeatedly that the classes are not only fine but actually that they are quite strong, even "overpowered" in many cases. i mean actual top players too, those who have demonstrable experience in all facets of the game such as incredibly high SC winrates over thousands of matches, top 1-3 placements in solo and group ranked, high city winrate over many dozens of matches, all classes/archetypes in multiple roles bis, etc.

extreme amounts of testimonials, evidence, logic and truths have been stated each and every time to the contrary and in the face of all that some people are still trying to argue the same, blatantly wrong or misinformed points.

it's the same thing with all the slayer, WE, mara, BG, shield healer, etc threads. ingame chat channels are just as bad too, it's becoming incredibly depressing, in some cases even upsetting, to read. hope is all but lost for the majority of this community now. there's just no understanding or learning ever being achieved despite all the efforts to correct and teach those who have been mislead - and those who are mislead or unknowledgeable just continue to spew their confidently wrong, often biased, predominantly subjective garbage on to new or less experienced and further this cruel cycle.

this game is not balanced around 1v1 or backpedaling randoms having <6 player skirmishes in the corner of a lake. your class doesn't have XYZ ability for a reason. that reason is usually because it has a different utility. the game is foundationally designed and balanced around classes having unique strengths and weaknesses that set them apart from one another and the idea that you should craft group compositions to exacerbate strengths and compensate for weaknesses. this is intentional, as it is an mmo, which by design seeks to encourage players to group up with others and be social because that is quite literally what the genre is made for.

homogenization of design between classes has proven to be extremely bad when implemented in other mmos because it starts to dismantle the carefully woven fabrics i just described. eventually your class choice ends up becoming more of an aesthetic choice and less about the class' identity as it loses all of its uniqueness and instrumental systems like mix and matching strengths and weaknesses dies out which dampens genre elements and leads to community erosion and gameplay degradation. ripple effects must always be taken in to account else we get to the point we are at today due to things like unified currency or end up like modern wow where every class feels and plays the same and has the same capabilities because they wanted to satisfy everyone and threw away all the original soul and uniqueness of the game to accomplish it.

tl;dr you don't need charge, because your class has utility and luxuries in other places, and you likely will not get it any time soon. take some of the kindly given advice strewn throughout this thread and its many predecessors and, as they say, learn to play. otherwise you only condemn yourself to being permanently stuck in the pool of dregs at the bottom while you let your confidently wrong takes, biases, mistake beliefs, misinformation, lack of understanding and desire to understand and unwillingness to learn or adapt hold you back from becoming better. i believe in you (whoever you are) to do better - if not for yourself than for your community.

[Cullenn]

it's crazy that these type of threads are still going with the same back and forth.

in the past dozen threads on this topic and similar topics we've had multiple top exp/knowledge/skill players (both of the class(es) in question and otherwise) telling you all repeatedly that the classes are not only fine but actually that they are quite strong, even "overpowered" in many cases. i mean actual top players too, those who have demonstrable experience in all facets of the game such as incredibly high SC winrates over thousands of matches, top 1-3 placements in solo and group ranked, high city winrate over many dozens of matches, all classes/archetypes in multiple roles bis, etc.

extreme amounts of testimonials, evidence, logic and truths have been stated each and every time to the contrary and in the face of all that some people are still trying to argue the same, blatantly wrong or misinformed points.

it's the same thing with all the slayer, WE, mara, BG, shield healer, etc threads. ingame chat channels are just as bad too, it's becoming incredibly depressing, in some cases even upsetting, to read. hope is all but lost for the majority of this community now. there's just no understanding or learning ever being achieved despite all the efforts to correct and teach those who have been mislead - and those who are mislead or unknowledgeable just continue to spew their confidently wrong, often biased, predominantly subjective garbage on to new or less experienced and further this cruel cycle.

this game is not balanced around 1v1 or backpedaling randoms having <6 player skirmishes in the corner of a lake. your class doesn't have XYZ ability for a reason. that reason is usually because it has a different utility. the game is foundationally designed and balanced around classes having unique strengths and weaknesses that set them apart from one another and the idea that you should craft group compositions to exacerbate strengths and compensate for weaknesses. this is intentional, as it is an mmo, which by design seeks to encourage players to group up with others and be social because that is quite literally what the genre is made for.

homogenization of design between classes has proven to be extremely bad when implemented in other mmos because it starts to dismantle the carefully woven fabrics i just described. eventually your class choice ends up becoming more of an aesthetic choice and less about the class' identity as it loses all of its uniqueness and instrumental systems like mix and matching strengths and weaknesses dies out which dampens genre elements and leads to community erosion and gameplay degradation. ripple effects must always be taken in to account else we get to the point we are at today due to things like unified currency or end up like modern wow where every class feels and plays the same and has the same capabilities because they wanted to satisfy everyone and threw away all the original soul and uniqueness of the game to accomplish it.

tl;dr you don't need charge, because your class has utility and luxuries in other places, and you likely will not get it any time soon. take some of the kindly given advice strewn throughout this thread and its many predecessors and, as they say, learn to play. otherwise you only condemn yourself to being permanently stuck in the pool of dregs at the bottom while you let your confidently wrong takes, biases, mistake beliefs, misinformation, lack of understanding and desire to understand and unwillingness to learn or adapt hold you back from becoming better. i believe in you (whoever you are) to do better - if not for yourself than for your community.

Please explain to me how a melee dps having a charge, since it had a slow from far before dismantle "everything that has been carefully woven fabrics" as you say? it is not changing damage, it can still be affected by knockdown or punt or disarm or silence, it is literally a single gap closer, but the problem isn't rdps and other dps healers such as shamans solo roaming, is it? No. For you the problem is just the WP, there are alot of posts of people asking to nerf WP instead of WE, aren't there? you comment as if giving it a charge will break the game, especially considering all rdps have escapes too, i doubt you also comment things like this when overbuffed def WE are op, do you? i guess not.

[nocturnalguest]

Cullenn, man. Look, we definitely can go down further and obviously i know how other classes dmg looks in bis in different gamemodes, we can cherry abilities per class and do any other kind of pointless stuff. But! there is also an option of you just rereading few my posts here and either tie some detailed specific questions so i can explain myself better because i already addressed that all.

Also, same from me, with all the respect ive gave an answer you ask from gersy. Charge will increase their survivability for organised play. Thats most impactful outcome. For solo/pug you will have much better time vs rdps. What is not clear on this? If you don't understand how big it is just let us know. Also i repeat myself for third time, im not against that myself but its just me, worries of people like e.g. noronn who is elite player are concerns you can't simply discard with some random crap (no offense man, you keep discussion well and civil kudos for that but arguments you provide are extremely lacking) about solo shamans.


Also great post gersy, thats a nice one. Words of wisdom, especially like the part where you point about importance of building proper groups