Where Are These Balance Numbers Coming From?

[OceanSoul]

My guess of why they are so much focused on PvE is that internally they can't handle meaningful and productive discussion around the goals of PvP related changes. So they don't actually acquire new people to design said changes and they don't communicate rationale behind the changes to the community. This attitude somehow related to whatever schism happened back then in the old dev team.

So, yeah, there is no way to tell where the numbers are coming from, and its definitely the case that the balance team is a bit unbalanced in terms of what they play (see recent Slayer and Sorc changes vs Choppa and BW ones).

[Avanos]

I'd rather not turn this into another WE/WH thread, guys. It's getting pretty silly at this point.

The point of this thread isn't to argue over one class or another. It's to talk about the process behind balancing all 24 careers.

Whether you play WE, WH, Magus, BW, Chosen, Slayer, or anything else shouldn't matter. Every player wants the same thing: a game where balance decisions are backed by consistent reasoning instead of what feels like guesswork.

If we keep making this about individual classes, we're missing the bigger conversation. I'm asking how we can improve the balance process itself and reduce bias going forward. That's something every player should be able to get behind.

[BrutalWyrm]

‘ I was playing my BW last week and I got a buncha dots on me, so I think it’d be cool if we just had a morale to remove all that. Oh and Sorcs shouldn’t be morale bombing aoe, that’s our thing. Ah, and before I forget, was looking at forums and saw another WE whine thread. Should probably pick the low-hanging fruit and look like we care by nerfing them real quick… remember how happy destro was after the whole slayer thing?’


“The data”

[rorswar]

I'd rather not turn this into another WE/WH thread, guys. It's getting pretty silly at this point.

But but but… ok, I’ll resist.

P.S. I already asked ChatGPT to craft some Magus threads.

[Tulrs]

I'd rather not turn this into another WE/WH thread, guys. It's getting pretty silly at this point.

The point of this thread isn't to argue over one class or another. It's to talk about the process behind balancing all 24 careers.

Whether you play WE, WH, Magus, BW, Chosen, Slayer, or anything else shouldn't matter. Every player wants the same thing: a game where balance decisions are backed by consistent reasoning instead of what feels like guesswork.

If we keep making this about individual classes, we're missing the bigger conversation. I'm asking how we can improve the balance process itself and reduce bias going forward. That's something every player should be able to get behind.

I appreciate you trying to get to the crux of the issue.

I think the true answer is that there never will be "true balance" in this game.

Couple of reasons why.

The biggest issue (and the one that the devs will never do). Is the AOE damage model. If they make this change, too many classes will lose their class identity. So it just won't be done.

Change: Reduce AOE ability damage
Proposed changes: Change the AOE model from 66% to 40%.
Quick explanation for those who don’t know. Right now, ROR uses a 66% model on AOE abilities. So Lets say doing a single target ability would do 1000 damage. AOE abilities deal 66% of that (so 660). This means that if an AOE ability hits two people, it makes it more effective than a single target ability in terms of #s (1000 if single target, 1320 if AOE and hits two people).
If you change it to 40%, it would make it so that it would need 3x people to hit to be more effective than single target, but only slightly more effective, and greatly more effective at 4+)
Reasoning: addressing the elephant in the room - AOE is just far superior to single target damage. As of right now, you just need to hit a second target and you’re already dealing more damage

Additional changes that would need to be made: Reduce healing capacity on AOE heals (not sure if it would be best to reduce the amount, or to add a cooldown to group heals).

Second is: ROR gear and abilities needs to be balanced per activity (PVE VS ORVR VS SC).
Another example of something that will never be done (less because of an actual issue so much as not enough manpower)
Truth of the matter is that certain things are specialized for certain activities. For example, WE regen built SUCKS in SCs, but is incredibly broken in 1v1/ORVR. And even with the AOE damage model changes above, who cares about that in PVE right?

Third is gear differential: I don't really need to explain this too much. A player in devastator joining an SC against a Sov player is going to get destroyed.

Other issue along this line:
ROR currency is character bound rather than account bound which i think is a MASSIVE issue. There's no reason it should be because it creates a vicious cycle of under-geared players. Who cares if I want to spend 50 days playing a certain character and then be able to transfer warcrests to a tank because my guild needs a tank? It doesn't change anything except add an artificial grind. It also largely locks people into certain specs, rather than be able to freely change around. For example, a different MMO *COUGH* SC play doesn't have any gear influence. You go to a PVP hub lobby, where you can put on any gear and get any stats you want and you can change it for free and at any time.

IMO: if I put time into the game, I shouldn't be punished for falling in love with a certain class, but then never be able to carry over that effort into other classes if my team/group needs it.

Fourth and final point: Consumables
As mentioned above, I think gear differential is a massive problem. but another one is Consumables. Along the same line, but being able to triple pot, use flee, and then AP pot is an entirely different world, even between same geared players.

Proposed changes: increase base healing on potions slightly, but make them all run on the same GCD, and make them affected by healing debuffs.

Example:
Potent drought of recovery: 3000
Triumphant potion: 2500
Shielding potion: 2150
Flee mechanic: if you use flee, you can't AP pot. Flee should prevent all action point gain.

Reasoning: This way, player made potions are still the best. And since they’re affected by healing debuffs, players have to be aware and use a shielding potion to get maximum effectiveness. Triumphant would still be accessible to players, but not the best potion.

Curious to see people's thoughts

[Slowbro]

First of all: vaporiser is a true hero of the order.
However, RP are op as **** and now that WE will be nerved form S tier to A tier, some other classes in S Tier like RP deserve nerfageddon.
Game could probably use a buffageddon instead of constant nerfs of cool builds. You should give new build options to the less popular classes.

[M0rw47h]

First of all: vaporiser is a true hero of the order.
However, RP are op as **** and now that WE will be nerved form S tier to A tier, some other classes in S Tier like RP deserve nerfageddon.
Game could probably use a buffageddon instead of constant nerfs of cool builds. You should give new build options to the less popular classes.

Nah, buffs mean never ending power creep and even faster TTK.
Nerfs are better balance wise, even if they demoralise players.

[gisborne]

Vaporiser tanks, dps, heals and kites with 100ft on low global cooldowns up to 6 people at a time on RP build

Right here you invalidate any opinion you might have because it's based on complete exaggerated, lying, nonsense.

[Avanos]

Vaporiser tanks, dps, heals and kites with 100ft on low global cooldowns up to 6 people at a time on RP build

Right here you invalidate any opinion you might have because it's based on complete exaggerated, lying, nonsense.

RP is a good example of the bias I’m talking about.

If someone on the team mains RP/Zealot, that’s fine, but they probably shouldn’t be the only voice deciding its balance.

I main WE, so I wouldn’t expect to make the final calls on WE/WH either. I can give feedback on the class, but the actual decisions should come from broader testing and real data.

[Avanos]

I'd rather not turn this into another WE/WH thread, guys. It's getting pretty silly at this point.

The point of this thread isn't to argue over one class or another. It's to talk about the process behind balancing all 24 careers.

Whether you play WE, WH, Magus, BW, Chosen, Slayer, or anything else shouldn't matter. Every player wants the same thing: a game where balance decisions are backed by consistent reasoning instead of what feels like guesswork.

If we keep making this about individual classes, we're missing the bigger conversation. I'm asking how we can improve the balance process itself and reduce bias going forward. That's something every player should be able to get behind.

I appreciate you trying to get to the crux of the issue.

I think the true answer is that there never will be "true balance" in this game.

Couple of reasons why.

The biggest issue (and the one that the devs will never do). Is the AOE damage model. If they make this change, too many classes will lose their class identity. So it just won't be done.

Change: Reduce AOE ability damage
Proposed changes: Change the AOE model from 66% to 40%.
Quick explanation for those who don’t know. Right now, ROR uses a 66% model on AOE abilities. So Lets say doing a single target ability would do 1000 damage. AOE abilities deal 66% of that (so 660). This means that if an AOE ability hits two people, it makes it more effective than a single target ability in terms of #s (1000 if single target, 1320 if AOE and hits two people).
If you change it to 40%, it would make it so that it would need 3x people to hit to be more effective than single target, but only slightly more effective, and greatly more effective at 4+)
Reasoning: addressing the elephant in the room - AOE is just far superior to single target damage. As of right now, you just need to hit a second target and you’re already dealing more damage

Additional changes that would need to be made: Reduce healing capacity on AOE heals (not sure if it would be best to reduce the amount, or to add a cooldown to group heals).

Second is: ROR gear and abilities needs to be balanced per activity (PVE VS ORVR VS SC).
Another example of something that will never be done (less because of an actual issue so much as not enough manpower)
Truth of the matter is that certain things are specialized for certain activities. For example, WE regen built SUCKS in SCs, but is incredibly broken in 1v1/ORVR. And even with the AOE damage model changes above, who cares about that in PVE right?

Third is gear differential: I don't really need to explain this too much. A player in devastator joining an SC against a Sov player is going to get destroyed.

Other issue along this line:
ROR currency is character bound rather than account bound which i think is a MASSIVE issue. There's no reason it should be because it creates a vicious cycle of under-geared players. Who cares if I want to spend 50 days playing a certain character and then be able to transfer warcrests to a tank because my guild needs a tank? It doesn't change anything except add an artificial grind. It also largely locks people into certain specs, rather than be able to freely change around. For example, a different MMO *COUGH* SC play doesn't have any gear influence. You go to a PVP hub lobby, where you can put on any gear and get any stats you want and you can change it for free and at any time.

IMO: if I put time into the game, I shouldn't be punished for falling in love with a certain class, but then never be able to carry over that effort into other classes if my team/group needs it.

Fourth and final point: Consumables
As mentioned above, I think gear differential is a massive problem. but another one is Consumables. Along the same line, but being able to triple pot, use flee, and then AP pot is an entirely different world, even between same geared players.

Proposed changes: increase base healing on potions slightly, but make them all run on the same GCD, and make them affected by healing debuffs.

Example:
Potent drought of recovery: 3000
Triumphant potion: 2500
Shielding potion: 2150
Flee mechanic: if you use flee, you can't AP pot. Flee should prevent all action point gain.

Reasoning: This way, player made potions are still the best. And since they’re affected by healing debuffs, players have to be aware and use a shielding potion to get maximum effectiveness. Triumphant would still be accessible to players, but not the best potion.

Curious to see people's thoughts

I actually agree with a lot of this.

I don't think perfect balance is possible either. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't improve how we get there.

My point isn't that AI or data magically solves balance. It's that we have tools now that can help validate decisions before they go live.

The final decision should always be made by the devs. I just think the process could be a lot more objective.