Fun is decreasing - lets discuss

[ventiiLatte]

5) Game still brings a lot of fun from leveling alts and grinding for goods, new cosmetics are regulary arriving - this is well designed. Hitting lvl 40 is painful though, because you have to grind through all the pve dunguons to get the wards and viable gear for PvP and save crests for BiS. Maybe it would be better if you had a way to get low lvl PvP gear easier (mentor system maybe? rewards for having a mentor, bringing you sets for free up to invader? could be good, would also help new players). You should be able to just play PvP and gear up in PvP, not losing your opportunity to gear up to BiS fast. Leave PvE to PvE enjoyers, don't force PvP players into it.

I'm a bit confused by this and I'd genuinely appreciate some clarification.

I've mostly been playing PvP since hitting 40 and have been spending my War Crests on the progression sets as I unlocked them.
Reading your post makes me wonder if I've been doing it wrong.

Are you saying that the more efficient route is to farm the PvE dungeons first (Ruin/Sentinel, wards, dungeon gear, etc.) and save as many War Crests as possible for the later BiS PvP sets instead of spending them on the earlier progression?

If that's the case, roughly at what point should you actually start spending your Crests? Is there a recommended progression that veteran players generally follow?
Which PVE content should I be playing focusing on? Is it class dependant?

[rorswar]

5) Game still brings a lot of fun from leveling alts and grinding for goods, new cosmetics are regulary arriving - this is well designed. Hitting lvl 40 is painful though, because you have to grind through all the pve dunguons to get the wards and viable gear for PvP and save crests for BiS. Maybe it would be better if you had a way to get low lvl PvP gear easier (mentor system maybe? rewards for having a mentor, bringing you sets for free up to invader? could be good, would also help new players). You should be able to just play PvP and gear up in PvP, not losing your opportunity to gear up to BiS fast. Leave PvE to PvE enjoyers, don't force PvP players into it.

I'm a bit confused by this and I'd genuinely appreciate some clarification.

I've mostly been playing PvP since hitting 40 and have been spending my War Crests on the progression sets as I unlocked them.
Reading your post makes me wonder if I've been doing it wrong.

Are you saying that the more efficient route is to farm the PvE dungeons first (Ruin/Sentinel, wards, dungeon gear, etc.) and save as many War Crests as possible for the later BiS PvP sets instead of spending them on the earlier progression?

If that's the case, roughly at what point should you actually start spending your Crests? Is there a recommended progression that veteran players generally follow?
Which PVE content should I be playing focusing on? Is it class dependant?

That's indeed the most effcient way.

You need to unlock your wards in order to unlock the next tier up for gear.

You can do that by spending crests from PvP/RvR by buying the relevant sets that unlock those wards, or you can do PvE dungeons to get free sets there.

A lot of people, including myself, question this logic as it's notably less efficient just to purely play RvR. For reference, my SM is RR82 and still doesn't have full Sov as I refuse to play dungeons as I hate PvE with a vengeance.

Now, that's clearly my choice but it's odd that PvE in some aspects is the more efficient route towards BiS gear in what is really a RvR game.

[TheWatchGuy]

When I talk to people pretty much all of them agree that the fun of fighting has decreased over the last years.

Lets gather some input/feedback here. Feel free to answer one or more of these questions:
-> What do you think got worse? Or do you think it got better? Tell as what and why. Keep it short. What got worse and why, maybe short suggestion to improve.
-> What do you think is currently hurting the overall fun? You don't like pulls or stealthers? Tell us.

Keep it short. Please stay on topic.

------
I do the start.

I personally think that there are some "cheesy" game plays that are really hurting the overall fun for me:

1. Fishing for people with pulls. It's such a low risk/high reward strategy that is very easy to pull off and very hard to counter, granting almost a guaranteed kill in most cases. The pull distance for Maras/WLs is just too far. It feels unfair and not fun.

2. Playing golf with people. Tanks with crazy high defenses walking in knocking someone down and punting it into the own lines. Like with pulls it is a low risk / high reward tactic that is again very hard to counter, almost impossible. Again it feels unfair and not fun.

3. Moral drop farming. This I see a lot in orvr by organized warbands. They wait for their morals, pretend to fall back just to overpower them quickly with moral drops. Again a very cheesy play which can be executed almost every minute. For the casual players just wanting to have fun this feels very unfair and not fun because they keep getting killed without being able to kill anything. Works especially well on destro with their fast moral gains, snare prayer from doks and mara aoe kd.

4. Small scale died off with all the overtuned stealthers everywhere. Nothing to add there. Should be obvious.

There is only one point for me that really made the game better than before:

1. I like the new scenario queue system. Works really well and I think it's the best you can get out of that queue system. Fun in scenarios increased due to more equal matches.

Your turn.

1) Pulls from Mara/WL. Why can't you Devs put a CD on a fail "Fetch"? Mara makes a pull, gets disrupted, and he pulls immediately again; please fix this? It also needs a much longer CD, like 1min once? Right now, even if you disrupted the pull, Mara just keeps spamming the same spell on you!

2) Punting. If the tank knocks you down and punts you, the distance should be 50%. If he punts you without knocking you down first, yes, give him the 100% distance. This way it's fairer to the target.

3) Morale dumping. I think it's ok at the moment.

4) Small-scale fighting. I think we should enlarge the RvR areas on each map, so many of the PvE areas can be used. This way the fights can be more spread out, and smaller-scale fights can happen with a lower proability to get run over by multiple WBs.

5) Blobbing. The current state of play does not penalise blobbing, which is killing the game. We need to implement a system where the more you blob, the more HP and DPS are reduced. For example:
- 1 WB, no penalty
- 2 WBs, HP and DPS reduced 25%
- 3 WBs, HP and DPS reduced 50%
- 4 WBs and more, HP and DPS reduced 75%
This way, no WBs will blob, and the fights will be more spread out. Even if 4 WBs jump on 1 enemy WB, the 1 enemy WB has a good chance to fight.

These are my 2 cents' worth.

[arEntropic]

5) Game still brings a lot of fun from leveling alts and grinding for goods, new cosmetics are regulary arriving - this is well designed. Hitting lvl 40 is painful though, because you have to grind through all the pve dunguons to get the wards and viable gear for PvP and save crests for BiS. Maybe it would be better if you had a way to get low lvl PvP gear easier (mentor system maybe? rewards for having a mentor, bringing you sets for free up to invader? could be good, would also help new players). You should be able to just play PvP and gear up in PvP, not losing your opportunity to gear up to BiS fast. Leave PvE to PvE enjoyers, don't force PvP players into it.

I'm a bit confused by this and I'd genuinely appreciate some clarification.

I've mostly been playing PvP since hitting 40 and have been spending my War Crests on the progression sets as I unlocked them.
Reading your post makes me wonder if I've been doing it wrong.

Are you saying that the more efficient route is to farm the PvE dungeons first (Ruin/Sentinel, wards, dungeon gear, etc.) and save as many War Crests as possible for the later BiS PvP sets instead of spending them on the earlier progression?

If that's the case, roughly at what point should you actually start spending your Crests? Is there a recommended progression that veteran players generally follow?
Which PVE content should I be playing focusing on? Is it class dependant?

The way most of old players do it:
1) you hit 40, you need to unlock the wards, you start with conq ward - it's either 3 Gunbad runs, or you save your time and buy conq, it's pretty cheap and a good starting set for every role;
2) vanq ward - you do 4 runs of crypts or BB, depending on faction, you do it on every toon, because sentinel ring is hard preBiS for every class;
3) invader ward - you do 4 runs of BS, here you do it every time as well, because unlocking inv ward with crests is very-very expensive, you can maybe buy invader for SW for extra range, but you'll still need at least 2 BS runs for bloodlord weapon - this weapon is BiS for every DPS class;
4) you do 4 LV runs, you get darkpromise set - it's also preBiS set for most of classes (for some classes it's mix of this set with others), darkpromise weapon is a very-very good pick if you're a dual wielder or range dps with extra weapon slot, or a tank/healer, also secret bosses in LV grant Band of Temptation - BiS jewel for a lot of classes who lack wounds.
Also hitting 40 you do beastlord run and possibly 4 HV runs, beastlord is good for mixing sets, HV 5pc mix is preBiS for healers, good for DPS before they get LV set.
It's a lot of PvE grind in this game to save crests for BiS. You start buying gear pieces when you can equip triumphant, and then you invest the most in sovereign. Sov/Tri mix and the ammount of pieces you need of each depends on a class you play. Shield tanks wear full sov, no Tri pieces. Some classes/specs go for warlord instead of sov. Talking about weapons, you can start spending crests on weapons you need early, if they unlock your BiS weapon option later. BiS weapons are also different for every class, but every dps wears bloodlord (which comes from pve).

[BloodnTears]

wow, this poll clearly shows how out of touch with the community devs are.

[Culexus]

wow, this poll clearly shows how out of touch with the community devs are.

Not really.

People come to the forums almost exclusively to cry, rage, whinge, moan, and push their own particular hobby horse. It's not exactly a shock that a thread titled "Fun is decreasing" attracts a lot of these people.

[wonshot]

As mostly a caster (close range though) damage dealer player, I had somewhat hoped the the Ranged patch would do "more". Whatever that fun is. Naturally its not the job of the balancing team to cater to *me* lol. If they deemed it best to trying to make underused and really bad tactics and morales into more of a top4 contender, thats is honestly fine.

But in hard blunt reality the only thing this patch did for me as an Aoe BW main, MSH alt, and Sorc/choppa/slayer enjoyer was the following:
- I purchased 7 x +25% int talismans on my BW as he is my "do-it-all" character and where i make homemade chase goals. Annihilate got buffed and thats nice, but just brings BW/Sorc somewhat closer to the classmechanic nerf from a year ago 100%critdmg nerfed to 85%critdmg.
- I slotted a M3 new morale which might be used once per evening for kiting and saving KDA egos.
- Detonate changes and effort turned into a big nothing-burger and doesnt change anything, i already get corp debuff from Random engineers our the build our group runs on SM for debuffing 240 allresist, or any random knight with resist aura exsisting in any fight im in.
- If i log my sorc, im not really changing my aoe build either, I slotted the new M3 Morale but everything else is the same. No changes in my rotation, Mastery build or anything.
- My MSH already had a burst clashing rotation and now i gain some more aoe pressure by doing the rotation I already was doing of badgass into BB and filler Bounce. More damage is nice, but thats about what changed.

Dont get me wrong, alot of the classes got bigger overhauls! some very needed on nerfs to Skirmish SW and buffs to melee solo MSH etc. But the turretclasses are fundamentally still chained to their turret as a foundation, aoe caster rotations didnt get any attention.

So what do I wanna say with this, well.
There are some good changes, alot of effort put in absolutely! but its like the big picture is missed once again. The game didnt really become more fun, in contrast to the effort put in. The community has been screaming for rvr changes, focus and improvement. Instead we get balancing changes that took two years to finish. Pve is again and again getting improved on, thats also nice. But did it change anything? Did more WoW asking players come in and stick around for longer because pve is improved? The scenario adjustments and changes are honestly good, i like that direction as one of the few improvements to replay loops. Both the matchmaking and the weapon incentive + weekly reward push to make weekdays have more sc pops hopefully.

But in the end of the day its the scenario mats, same rvr maps, same mechanics of zonelocks.
New gear is nice for having something to push, but we honestly soon need some big and really focused changes to rvr. Zones like Reikland have horrible heatmaps, is very easy to analyze why, and yet nothing is being done about it. We get to hear bragging about new editing tools, we got involved with suggestions and ideas about Random rvr mechanics. But where are these systems, changes and focus? Has this even been started and worked on? Or will this be yet an other 2year push to get some lukewarm patch?
The fun is fading, but what is honestly being done about it. Not just a roadmap, but truely.. What is being done about rvr?

[lumpi33]

Yeah, I agree with you Bombling. We got such a big patch with lots of changes but it didn't address the stuff that actually matters.

Just a few examples:
#1 People are complaining about the barriers in SCs since years. Why are they still there? We need guards there and we need something for the underdog to have a chance to fight back if they are being dominated. Like the Temple of Isha buff at the warcamp to gain momentum again when being dominated and get at least a few kills. Not having a chance at all when the other team is just a lot stronger is not fun. Especially when you get them over and over again because with a strong premade queuing on the other side you automatically loose players queuing on your side which means the chances of getting them again as enemies is then higher if you keep queuing. Like I said, there would be options to make it bit better for the loosing side to gain momentum again and get some kills. Nothing is more frustrating than rounds where your side is not able to kill anything and ends the round with 0 kills. That's a classic stomp. It doesn't have to be like that.

#2 PvD. Player vs keep doors. Nowadays people only attack keeps when they see some AAO on the other side knowing they are more and then they block the keep first before getting the ram. That means it is very hard for the underdog to get people inside the keep and actually have a good fight there. They should really make some changes there. Either let them respawn inside the keep when they are dying close to it or allow them to fly in when they are having AAO. Something like that.
Another thing I don't like is that the attackers are just standing in front of the door until it goes down, then do it with the next door, then moral push in. It all comes down to the final push in. How could that be improved? Well, it goes hand in hand with the respawn. Once the inner door is damage you can't respawn inside the keep anymore. That means nobody wants to go outside and try fighting there. It should be changed to: While the inner door is up you respawn inside the keep. That would increase the fighting action inside the keep while the inner door is still up. Not just standing inside/outside waiting for the inner door to go down. That is freaking boring.

#3 Do something about the broken defense system. Especially the disrupts. Tanks and healers are sitting there with such high chances to block/disrupt that as a BW/Sorc it is not uncommon to get multiple spells in a row disrupted/blocked. I've really never played any class in any MMO where such an absurd amount of spells were getting defended. I don't think that this is primarily a BW/Sorc problem and more of a broken defense system problem. It's not only disrupts. Tanks can get absurd high parry rates and parry is what counts for guarding. In general the defenses are just waaay too high.