Magus fix

[Farrul]

Why do Magus get 2 pets? Who thought this was a good idea? These posters defending Magus pointing out many other classes are "less fortunate" is an understatement. With the amount of pressure they can dish out no healer can keep up cleanse and the toughness mitigation is ridiculous.

2 pets? Do you mean the screamer? I think that 1 is currently bugged. Yes Magus is quite ridiculous atm in solo.

[havartii]

yes screamer.. helps pressure as well,

[J0t4ro]

Because the base damage, multipliers, and offensive spell/tactic synergies aren't the same between these classes? Being able to switch between healing and DPS with one button doesn't mean that a RP or zealot have the same offensive pressure, burst, range, aoe, and scaling as a magus.

That's precisely why you don't see RP/zealot nerf threads every week, performing well as a DPS healer hybrid (+25% damage/-20% healing) in solo or group, isn't the same as having a magus level offensive pressure.

Now here comes another one mixing stuff. If we are discussing solo, lets discuss solo. Its obvious that a HEALER should never have all the same tricks a pure dps class has. Still, when discussing solo roaming (that seems to be the main excuse for complaint on every thread), many other classes perform even better than Magus.

On the "barely performs when healers are involved" point: if a class can burst targets down extremely fast in solo, that damage potential doesn't magically disappear the moment a healer shows up. Guards, cleanses, interrupts, positioning, etc. reduces every DPS class's effectiveness, not just magus.

If you genuinely think a magus underperforms in group content once healers are involved, that's an argument for looking at ST tuning specifically, not for just dismissing the solo dominance as irrelevant.

Well, yes it does as much of that burst depends on certains skills to land on the target and not to be cleansed for example. Just compare vs a SH/SW or vs a MDPS. Just the heal debuff makes them 100% more effective than Magus (or Engi). Since inmunities are shared, all the shinny toolbox Magus may provide goes down the toilet in most group content situations.

The reason why I keep bringing this up is because people asking for nerfing the solo capabilities of the Magus do not care that in group content its still underperforming. People complaining about burst or damage in solo roaming do not take into account that in other types of content, that damage, even if it seems high, it isn´t really. Yes Magus has a wide range of tools at his dispossal wich makes it a very versatile class while soloing but, damage output complains? please...

My guess is that many of the people complaining here have not even played Magus in the lakes and may be a little bit hurt because Magus is the "flavour of the month" class and the is an unusual amount of them running around in the RvR lakes ganking other less fortunate solo roamers. Pair that with the stealth nerf to the "typical" solo roamer class and I am sure everyone can understand where most of these complains are coming from.

The fun truth is that it seems that these complains have started appearing after the last patch. However, last patch did not do much for the Magus dps in terms of solo roaming. Yes, we got a couple nice QoL changes like the instant pet buff but we also got a 5% nerf in one of our main tactics. Overall, Magus has not gained dps, if anything it has lost some (Regarding solo roaming or ST in general, AoE spec is a quite better now).

Sorry? Another one mixing stuff up? If i replied to the things you said, then who is the one?

This is exactly where i think you're conflating two different things. If we're discussing solo roaming, fine, let's discuss solo roaming. But then the fact that another class performs well, or even better, in solo doesn't mean its offensive capabilities are comparable to that of a magus, agreed?

So having a DPS healer hybrid (an example which you provided) with a strong solo sustain is a completely different kind of strength from a pure DPS class having the magus's range, burst, damage profile, and overall offensive toolkit, yes?

Then "Other classes are also good at solo" and "Magus's own damage isn't a problem" are not the same claim, and you keep treating the first as if it proves the second.

Same goes for the group content point that you mixed in. Pointing out that SH/SW/MDPS are more effective in certain group situations because of a heal debuff is a fair point about ST utility and group composition, but it doesn't follow that a magus's damage "isn't really that high." Those are two different things.

Also, cleansing isn't a free action. Every gcd or resource a healer spends cleansing, is one not spent keeping up with the rest of the assist train's damage. If healers are dedicating real attention to a magus specifically, then that's an argument a magus IS threatening, not proof it's weak. Right?

I don't think anyone is arguing that a magus should perform identically in solo and in organized group play. The question is whether its current combination of range, burst, sustained damage, and utility is appropriately tuned for what it can do in the modes where it excels.
"Other classes can solo roam too" and "Magus gets countered by healers in groups" don't answer that question, they just change the subject.

Which is really the core issue with your whole argument: you're using a magus's group ST performance to dismiss concerns about its solo damage. If solo is what's being discussed (as you stated), its performance somewhere else isn't a rebuttal.

On the patch note detail, that's a separate discussion. Classes can lose a small tactic value in one patch and still be overtuned for solo overall. One doesn't cancel out the other.

[havartii]

I would strongly agree with the post that asked the question, If devs were really aiming at group play. Why did single target get buffed and not aoe?

[J0t4ro]

I would strongly agree with the post that asked the question, If devs were really aiming at group play. Why did single target get buffed and not aoe?

Group content isn't just blob vs blob. There are small scale group fights and focus firing priority targets are also group content, and that's exactly where an ST buff has value. AoE mattering more at large scale doesn't mean ST is irrelevant to group play.

[havartii]

If you read posts from avid Magus enthusiasts you would see the need for more damage output in large scale fights. No one ever complained about their small scale powers. They have been top for quite a while. And you didn't answer the question. If devs were really concerned with their group contributions, why not buff aoe?

[J0t4ro]

If you read posts from avid Magus enthusiasts you would see the need for more damage output in large scale fights. No one ever complained about their small scale powers. They have been top for quite a while. And you didn't answer the question. If devs were really concerned with their group contributions, why not buff aoe?

I can't tell you exactly why devs chose ST over AoE specifically, and neither can you. Neither of us has access to their reasoning, so "why not AoE" isn't really something i can answer with certainty, and framing it like there's an obvious answer i'm avoiding isn't fair either.

What i can say is that ST buffs clearly have group value regardless of what the loudest complaints were about. You said yourself that a magus's small scale performance has been top for a while. Then ST is already relevant to group content by your own admission, buff or not.

Focus firing priority targets in small scale group fights is group content just as much as AoE in a blob fight is, it's just a different scale of the same category.

If devs wanted to address large scale AoE specifically, then that's a fair separate conversation to have. But that doesn't make an ST buff meaningless or proof that group contribution wasn't a factor. If it was already top small scale, isn't that group value already answered right there?

[CountTalabecland]

Just when I thought things might be ok with insanely OP Witch Elfs getting nerfed....

Here comes insanely over-buffed Magus.

Crazy stuff.... can we still call it a "balance" team when this is what it produces?

[Mishas]

Sorry? Another one mixing stuff up? If i replied to the things you said, then who is the one?

This is exactly where i think you're conflating two different things. If we're discussing solo roaming, fine, let's discuss solo roaming. But then the fact that another class performs well, or even better, in solo doesn't mean its offensive capabilities are comparable to that of a magus, agreed?

So having a DPS healer hybrid (an example which you provided) with a strong solo sustain is a completely different kind of strength from a pure DPS class having the magus's range, burst, damage profile, and overall offensive toolkit, yes?

Then "Other classes are also good at solo" and "Magus's own damage isn't a problem" are not the same claim, and you keep treating the first as if it proves the second.

Here is my answer yo your questions:

If your argument is "every class is different", yes, you are right. However, you use that as they are not comparable and here is where I think you are shortsighted.

There are a lot of similarities in the gameplay of many of them (particularly RDPS ones). AM/SH, RP/ZEALOT even SW/SH gameplays are pretty much the same as a Magus. Dot pressure first + CC + casted skills burst + kiting. Their offensive capabilities in this context ARE comparable and therefore makes sense to bring them up.

If we lay our focus on Magus only I think its fair to ask what does this class bring to the table that the other contestants don´t and gets people mad. That was my point.

Same goes for the group content point that you mixed in. Pointing out that SH/SW/MDPS are more effective in certain group situations because of a heal debuff is a fair point about ST utility and group composition, but it doesn't follow that a magus's damage "isn't really that high." Those are two different things.

Also, cleansing isn't a free action. Every gcd or resource a healer spends cleansing, is one not spent keeping up with the rest of the assist train's damage. If healers are dedicating real attention to a magus specifically, then that's an argument a magus IS threatening, not proof it's weak. Right?

I don't think anyone is arguing that a magus should perform identically in solo and in organized group play. The question is whether its current combination of range, burst, sustained damage, and utility is appropriately tuned for what it can do in the modes where it excels.
"Other classes can solo roam too" and "Magus gets countered by healers in groups" don't answer that question, they just change the subject.

Which is really the core issue with your whole argument: you're using a magus's group ST performance to dismiss concerns about its solo damage. If solo is what's being discussed (as you stated), its performance somewhere else isn't a rebuttal.

On the patch note detail, that's a separate discussion. Classes can lose a small tactic value in one patch and still be overtuned for solo overall. One doesn't cancel out the other.

The issue is simple: How can you balance one without affecting the other? If you only complain about the damage (like many post were doing in this thread), its impossible. That was my point.

I never said Magus was useless or that it could be ignored in group content. The problem is that people complain about things in certain contexts disregarding other ones. Magus might be a powerful solo roamer but when it comes to small scale, it just simply underperforms (its obviously just an opinion, not a fact). Balance has to be done taking into account all of them, that is all I am saying.

[Mishas]

If you read posts from avid Magus enthusiasts you would see the need for more damage output in large scale fights. No one ever complained about their small scale powers. They have been top for quite a while. And you didn't answer the question. If devs were really concerned with their group contributions, why not buff aoe?

I can't tell you exactly why devs chose ST over AoE specifically, and neither can you. Neither of us has access to their reasoning, so "why not AoE" isn't really something i can answer with certainty, and framing it like there's an obvious answer i'm avoiding isn't fair either.

What i can say is that ST buffs clearly have group value regardless of what the loudest complaints were about. You said yourself that a magus's small scale performance has been top for a while. Then ST is already relevant to group content by your own admission, buff or not.

Focus firing priority targets in small scale group fights is group content just as much as AoE in a blob fight is, it's just a different scale of the same category.

If devs wanted to address large scale AoE specifically, then that's a fair separate conversation to have. But that doesn't make an ST buff meaningless or proof that group contribution wasn't a factor. If it was already top small scale, isn't that group value already answered right there?

I hope you guys are just having different thoughts about what small scale means because Magus has never been on the top of any kind of group content apart from maybe PvE.

You know what is funny? I do not think any Magus would consider the ST changes "buffs" (maybe the pet stat contribution increase?). They were merely QoL changes. In addition, just to clarify, melee AoE spec did receive some actual buffs (May not have addressed the main issues but its something).