Magus fix

[ponko22]

It's strange that it can deal damage from a distance.
⇒SW Nerf
⇒Understood

BW/SORC buffed ranged damage.
⇒Because they have little utility and are fragile.
⇒Understood

Magus buffed 100ft ranged attack.
⇒But they have a lot of utility and high defense.
⇒Why?

[J0t4ro]

Sorry? Another one mixing stuff up? If i replied to the things you said, then who is the one?

This is exactly where i think you're conflating two different things. If we're discussing solo roaming, fine, let's discuss solo roaming. But then the fact that another class performs well, or even better, in solo doesn't mean its offensive capabilities are comparable to that of a magus, agreed?

So having a DPS healer hybrid (an example which you provided) with a strong solo sustain is a completely different kind of strength from a pure DPS class having the magus's range, burst, damage profile, and overall offensive toolkit, yes?

Then "Other classes are also good at solo" and "Magus's own damage isn't a problem" are not the same claim, and you keep treating the first as if it proves the second.

Here is my answer yo your questions:

If your argument is "every class is different", yes, you are right. However, you use that as they are not comparable and here is where I think you are shortsighted.

There are a lot of similarities in the gameplay of many of them (particularly RDPS ones). AM/SH, RP/ZEALOT even SW/SH gameplays are pretty much the same as a Magus. Dot pressure first + CC + casted skills burst + kiting. Their offensive capabilities in this context ARE comparable and therefore makes sense to bring them up.

If we lay our focus on Magus only I think its fair to ask what does this class bring to the table that the other contestants don´t and gets people mad. That was my point.

Same goes for the group content point that you mixed in. Pointing out that SH/SW/MDPS are more effective in certain group situations because of a heal debuff is a fair point about ST utility and group composition, but it doesn't follow that a magus's damage "isn't really that high." Those are two different things.

Also, cleansing isn't a free action. Every gcd or resource a healer spends cleansing, is one not spent keeping up with the rest of the assist train's damage. If healers are dedicating real attention to a magus specifically, then that's an argument a magus IS threatening, not proof it's weak. Right?

I don't think anyone is arguing that a magus should perform identically in solo and in organized group play. The question is whether its current combination of range, burst, sustained damage, and utility is appropriately tuned for what it can do in the modes where it excels.
"Other classes can solo roam too" and "Magus gets countered by healers in groups" don't answer that question, they just change the subject.

Which is really the core issue with your whole argument: you're using a magus's group ST performance to dismiss concerns about its solo damage. If solo is what's being discussed (as you stated), its performance somewhere else isn't a rebuttal.

On the patch note detail, that's a separate discussion. Classes can lose a small tactic value in one patch and still be overtuned for solo overall. One doesn't cancel out the other.

The issue is simple: How can you balance one without affecting the other? If you only complain about the damage (like many post were doing in this thread), its impossible. That was my point.

I never said Magus was useless or that it could be ignored in group content. The problem is that people complain about things in certain contexts disregarding other ones. Magus might be a powerful solo roamer but when it comes to small scale, it just simply underperforms (its obviously just an opinion, not a fact). Balance has to be done taking into account all of them, that is all I am saying.

That's not my argument, and reducing it to "every class is different" makes it easier for you to dismiss than what i actually said, and easier to call me shortsighted for it.

My point was specific: a DPS healer hybrid (which again, an example you brought up earlier) with strong solo sustain is a different kind of strength from a pure DPS with a magus's range, burst, and damage profile. That's not just "every class is different," that's a specific distinction about role and toolkit.

You're now arguing they're comparable in gameplay pattern (dot pressure, cc, casted burst, kiting), not in actual output. But similar rotation shape isn't the same as similar results. If they can't dish out the same output, how can they have the same offensive capabilities?

You yourself admitted that RPs or zealots don't have the 110ft burst, but you never made that same concession for AM/shaman or SW/SH, yet you're now lumping all of them into "comparable" together. Are you claiming they all have a magus's range and burst, or just assuming it because the rotation looks similar?

For RP and zealot, you at least admitted the burst gap exists and argued why it doesn't matter for solo roam. For the other ones you skipped that step entirely, you never said whether they have the same gap or not, you just called them comparable anyway.

Also notice you never actually answered the cleanse point. If healers are spending real resources cleansing a magus specifically, that's evidence it's a priority threat, not proof it's weak.

On "how can you balance one without affecting the other", i never said nerfs should ignore group consequences, so this isn't really a rebuttal to anything i said. It's a fair complication to keep in mind, but it doesn't make the solo problem less real, it just means the fix needs to be careful. Those are two different conversations.

I'll point out that earlier you stated the heal debuff makes SH/SW/MDPS "100% more effective" in group and that a magus's toolbox "goes down the toilet" as if it was fact. Now you're calling small scale underperformance "obviously just an opinion, not a fact." That's a pretty big shift from how confident you sounded a few posts ago.

[J0t4ro]

If you read posts from avid Magus enthusiasts you would see the need for more damage output in large scale fights. No one ever complained about their small scale powers. They have been top for quite a while. And you didn't answer the question. If devs were really concerned with their group contributions, why not buff aoe?

I can't tell you exactly why devs chose ST over AoE specifically, and neither can you. Neither of us has access to their reasoning, so "why not AoE" isn't really something i can answer with certainty, and framing it like there's an obvious answer i'm avoiding isn't fair either.

What i can say is that ST buffs clearly have group value regardless of what the loudest complaints were about. You said yourself that a magus's small scale performance has been top for a while. Then ST is already relevant to group content by your own admission, buff or not.

Focus firing priority targets in small scale group fights is group content just as much as AoE in a blob fight is, it's just a different scale of the same category.

If devs wanted to address large scale AoE specifically, then that's a fair separate conversation to have. But that doesn't make an ST buff meaningless or proof that group contribution wasn't a factor. If it was already top small scale, isn't that group value already answered right there?

I hope you guys are just having different thoughts about what small scale means because Magus has never been on the top of any kind of group content apart from maybe PvE.

You know what is funny? I do not think any Magus would consider the ST changes "buffs" (maybe the pet stat contribution increase?). They were merely QoL changes. In addition, just to clarify, melee AoE spec did receive some actual buffs (May not have addressed the main issues but its something).

Then it is also funny that you're also disputing havartii's "Magus has been top small scale for quite a while" claim, since that's the exact point i used against his "why ST and not AoE" argument. You're both arguing the recent ST changes didn't actually address what group content needs, just from opposite premises, he says that a magus is already strong small scale so AoE should've been prioritized, you say a magus was never strong there to begin with.

Also, i never claimed that a magus is top small scale myself, that was havartii's claim. I just used his own admission against his argument, so your "you guys having different thoughts about what small scale means" doesn't really apply to me here.

For clarity, when i say small scale, i mean things like 6v6s or 12v12s, not solo or full blob warband fights. If that's not what you or havartii mean, that might actually explain the disagreement.

You said "Magus has never been top of any group content apart from maybe PvE". That's a pretty strong claim, got anything backing it up, or is that also "obviously just an opinion, not a fact" like you said about small scale a few posts ago?

On the ST changes not being "buffs," just QoL, fine, that's consistent with what you said earlier. I'm not arguing that this specific patch was some huge magus buff, that's a separate discussion from whether the magus's overall kit is appropriately tuned.

[Farrul]

Just when I thought things might be ok with insanely OP Witch Elfs getting nerfed....

Here comes insanely over-buffed Magus.

Crazy stuff.... can we still call it a "balance" team when this is what it produces?

Well that's precisily why there may be hope that Magus will be brought to balance in small scale imho. devs recognized WE def was OP and unfun to fight against.

Same goes for Magus, just a little less toxic overall compared to the We's of old due to the nature of stealth ganking.

[Farrul]

I would strongly agree with the post that asked the question, If devs were really aiming at group play. Why did single target get buffed and not aoe?

That was the question. One might think that someone on the development team wanted certain advantages in solo play with the Magus?

But Magus has always been strong in solo, it's just that patch after patch worked in their favor to the point we are now in. (as mentioned the resistance formula change patch, was a huge buff to Magi vs other classes).