Magus fix

[ponko22]

It's strange that it can deal damage from a distance.
⇒SW Nerf
⇒Understood

BW/SORC buffed ranged damage.
⇒Because they have little utility and are fragile.
⇒Understood

Magus buffed 100ft ranged attack.
⇒But they have a lot of utility and high defense.
⇒Why?

[J0t4ro]

Sorry? Another one mixing stuff up? If i replied to the things you said, then who is the one?

This is exactly where i think you're conflating two different things. If we're discussing solo roaming, fine, let's discuss solo roaming. But then the fact that another class performs well, or even better, in solo doesn't mean its offensive capabilities are comparable to that of a magus, agreed?

So having a DPS healer hybrid (an example which you provided) with a strong solo sustain is a completely different kind of strength from a pure DPS class having the magus's range, burst, damage profile, and overall offensive toolkit, yes?

Then "Other classes are also good at solo" and "Magus's own damage isn't a problem" are not the same claim, and you keep treating the first as if it proves the second.

Here is my answer yo your questions:

If your argument is "every class is different", yes, you are right. However, you use that as they are not comparable and here is where I think you are shortsighted.

There are a lot of similarities in the gameplay of many of them (particularly RDPS ones). AM/SH, RP/ZEALOT even SW/SH gameplays are pretty much the same as a Magus. Dot pressure first + CC + casted skills burst + kiting. Their offensive capabilities in this context ARE comparable and therefore makes sense to bring them up.

If we lay our focus on Magus only I think its fair to ask what does this class bring to the table that the other contestants don´t and gets people mad. That was my point.

Same goes for the group content point that you mixed in. Pointing out that SH/SW/MDPS are more effective in certain group situations because of a heal debuff is a fair point about ST utility and group composition, but it doesn't follow that a magus's damage "isn't really that high." Those are two different things.

Also, cleansing isn't a free action. Every gcd or resource a healer spends cleansing, is one not spent keeping up with the rest of the assist train's damage. If healers are dedicating real attention to a magus specifically, then that's an argument a magus IS threatening, not proof it's weak. Right?

I don't think anyone is arguing that a magus should perform identically in solo and in organized group play. The question is whether its current combination of range, burst, sustained damage, and utility is appropriately tuned for what it can do in the modes where it excels.
"Other classes can solo roam too" and "Magus gets countered by healers in groups" don't answer that question, they just change the subject.

Which is really the core issue with your whole argument: you're using a magus's group ST performance to dismiss concerns about its solo damage. If solo is what's being discussed (as you stated), its performance somewhere else isn't a rebuttal.

On the patch note detail, that's a separate discussion. Classes can lose a small tactic value in one patch and still be overtuned for solo overall. One doesn't cancel out the other.

The issue is simple: How can you balance one without affecting the other? If you only complain about the damage (like many post were doing in this thread), its impossible. That was my point.

I never said Magus was useless or that it could be ignored in group content. The problem is that people complain about things in certain contexts disregarding other ones. Magus might be a powerful solo roamer but when it comes to small scale, it just simply underperforms (its obviously just an opinion, not a fact). Balance has to be done taking into account all of them, that is all I am saying.

That's not my argument, and reducing it to "every class is different" makes it easier for you to dismiss than what i actually said, and easier to call me shortsighted for it.

My point was specific: a DPS healer hybrid (which again, an example you brought up earlier) with strong solo sustain is a different kind of strength from a pure DPS with a magus's range, burst, and damage profile. That's not just "every class is different," that's a specific distinction about role and toolkit.

You're now arguing they're comparable in gameplay pattern (dot pressure, cc, casted burst, kiting), not in actual output. But similar rotation shape isn't the same as similar results. If they can't dish out the same output, how can they have the same offensive capabilities?

You yourself admitted that RPs or zealots don't have the 110ft burst, but you never made that same concession for AM/shaman or SW/SH, yet you're now lumping all of them into "comparable" together. Are you claiming they all have a magus's range and burst, or just assuming it because the rotation looks similar?

For RP and zealot, you at least admitted the burst gap exists and argued why it doesn't matter for solo roam. For the other ones you skipped that step entirely, you never said whether they have the same gap or not, you just called them comparable anyway.

Also notice you never actually answered the cleanse point. If healers are spending real resources cleansing a magus specifically, that's evidence it's a priority threat, not proof it's weak.

On "how can you balance one without affecting the other", i never said nerfs should ignore group consequences, so this isn't really a rebuttal to anything i said. It's a fair complication to keep in mind, but it doesn't make the solo problem less real, it just means the fix needs to be careful. Those are two different conversations.

I'll point out that earlier you stated the heal debuff makes SH/SW/MDPS "100% more effective" in group and that a magus's toolbox "goes down the toilet" as if it was fact. Now you're calling small scale underperformance "obviously just an opinion, not a fact." That's a pretty big shift from how confident you sounded a few posts ago.

[J0t4ro]

If you read posts from avid Magus enthusiasts you would see the need for more damage output in large scale fights. No one ever complained about their small scale powers. They have been top for quite a while. And you didn't answer the question. If devs were really concerned with their group contributions, why not buff aoe?

I can't tell you exactly why devs chose ST over AoE specifically, and neither can you. Neither of us has access to their reasoning, so "why not AoE" isn't really something i can answer with certainty, and framing it like there's an obvious answer i'm avoiding isn't fair either.

What i can say is that ST buffs clearly have group value regardless of what the loudest complaints were about. You said yourself that a magus's small scale performance has been top for a while. Then ST is already relevant to group content by your own admission, buff or not.

Focus firing priority targets in small scale group fights is group content just as much as AoE in a blob fight is, it's just a different scale of the same category.

If devs wanted to address large scale AoE specifically, then that's a fair separate conversation to have. But that doesn't make an ST buff meaningless or proof that group contribution wasn't a factor. If it was already top small scale, isn't that group value already answered right there?

I hope you guys are just having different thoughts about what small scale means because Magus has never been on the top of any kind of group content apart from maybe PvE.

You know what is funny? I do not think any Magus would consider the ST changes "buffs" (maybe the pet stat contribution increase?). They were merely QoL changes. In addition, just to clarify, melee AoE spec did receive some actual buffs (May not have addressed the main issues but its something).

Then it is also funny that you're also disputing havartii's "Magus has been top small scale for quite a while" claim, since that's the exact point i used against his "why ST and not AoE" argument. You're both arguing the recent ST changes didn't actually address what group content needs, just from opposite premises, he says that a magus is already strong small scale so AoE should've been prioritized, you say a magus was never strong there to begin with.

Also, i never claimed that a magus is top small scale myself, that was havartii's claim. I just used his own admission against his argument, so your "you guys having different thoughts about what small scale means" doesn't really apply to me here.

For clarity, when i say small scale, i mean things like 6v6s or 12v12s, not solo or full blob warband fights. If that's not what you or havartii mean, that might actually explain the disagreement.

You said "Magus has never been top of any group content apart from maybe PvE". That's a pretty strong claim, got anything backing it up, or is that also "obviously just an opinion, not a fact" like you said about small scale a few posts ago?

On the ST changes not being "buffs," just QoL, fine, that's consistent with what you said earlier. I'm not arguing that this specific patch was some huge magus buff, that's a separate discussion from whether the magus's overall kit is appropriately tuned.

[Farrul]

Just when I thought things might be ok with insanely OP Witch Elfs getting nerfed....

Here comes insanely over-buffed Magus.

Crazy stuff.... can we still call it a "balance" team when this is what it produces?

Well that's precisily why there may be hope that Magus will be brought to balance in small scale imho. devs recognized WE def was OP and unfun to fight against.

Same goes for Magus, just a little less toxic overall compared to the We's of old due to the nature of stealth ganking.

[Farrul]

I would strongly agree with the post that asked the question, If devs were really aiming at group play. Why did single target get buffed and not aoe?

That was the question. One might think that someone on the development team wanted certain advantages in solo play with the Magus?

But Magus has always been strong in solo, it's just that patch after patch worked in their favor to the point we are now in. (as mentioned the resistance formula change patch, was a huge buff to Magi vs other classes).

[CountTalabecland]

Just when I thought things might be ok with insanely OP Witch Elfs getting nerfed....

Here comes insanely over-buffed Magus.

Crazy stuff.... can we still call it a "balance" team when this is what it produces?

Well that's precisily why there may be hope that Magus will be brought to balance in small scale imho. devs recognized WE def was OP and unfun to fight against.

Same goes for Magus, just a little less toxic overall compared to the We's of old due to the nature of stealth ganking.

My point is can we please avoid having to suffer through months of OP destro classes until the balance team “recognizes” a problem they themselves created and that anyone with a functioning brain could have seen coming on the first place?

Everyone on PTS saw Magus changes for what they are but they still went live for some reason.

[Mishas]

That's not my argument, and reducing it to "every class is different" makes it easier for you to dismiss than what i actually said, and easier to call me shortsighted for it.

My point was specific: a DPS healer hybrid (which again, an example you brought up earlier) with strong solo sustain is a different kind of strength from a pure DPS with a magus's range, burst, and damage profile. That's not just "every class is different," that's a specific distinction about role and toolkit.

You're now arguing they're comparable in gameplay pattern (dot pressure, cc, casted burst, kiting), not in actual output. But similar rotation shape isn't the same as similar results. If they can't dish out the same output, how can they have the same offensive capabilities?

You yourself admitted that RPs or zealots don't have the 110ft burst, but you never made that same concession for AM/shaman or SW/SH, yet you're now lumping all of them into "comparable" together. Are you claiming they all have a magus's range and burst, or just assuming it because the rotation looks similar?

For RP and zealot, you at least admitted the burst gap exists and argued why it doesn't matter for solo roam. For the other ones you skipped that step entirely, you never said whether they have the same gap or not, you just called them comparable anyway.

Also notice you never actually answered the cleanse point. If healers are spending real resources cleansing a magus specifically, that's evidence it's a priority threat, not proof it's weak.

On "how can you balance one without affecting the other", i never said nerfs should ignore group consequences, so this isn't really a rebuttal to anything i said. It's a fair complication to keep in mind, but it doesn't make the solo problem less real, it just means the fix needs to be careful. Those are two different conversations.

I'll point out that earlier you stated the heal debuff makes SH/SW/MDPS "100% more effective" in group and that a magus's toolbox "goes down the toilet" as if it was fact. Now you're calling small scale underperformance "obviously just an opinion, not a fact." That's a pretty big shift from how confident you sounded a few posts ago.

You are very keen on that they can not output the same damage. They can not output the same sustain either. Once again, yes, they are not the same class and yet the gameplay is VERY similar, hence the comparison.

Regarding the cleanse point: Healers can spend resources specifically or pasively based on how they are specced but that was not my point. You say that them having to cleanse is evidence of a threat, well, it´s not. The only evidence is that they play to win and that by doing so little they are effectively neutralize an enemy. Now tell me if its so easy to do the same thing to a MDPS. You want evidence? Ask any of your healer friends about how afraid are them from facing a Magus. That will tell you all you need to know.

Facts vs opinions, what a great subject to bring up. Every single post is an opinon. Yours, mine, everyones. If you think that because I state that something is my opinion I am somehow shiftting my confidence on my arguments, sorry, that is not it.

I can tell you this for sure (opinion): Raw damage is not what makes Magus class special. There are other classes like Sorcerer that are more oriented to that (or should be). Magus is about utility + positioning while having enough damage to support it (because its still a dps nevertheless). However, in group content (small or big scale) most of that utility is voided by other players (inmunities for example). The bigger the scale, the more difficult it becomes to manage. This is the reason why while solo roaming Magus seems OP compared to other scales. In that context, all the tools are at his disposal and that is what it makes the class a very dangerous roamer.

My point has always been the same. There is a big difference between the "solo roaming" Magus, the "small scale" Magus and the "big scale" Magus. All I am stating on these type of threads is that people are often complaining about specific scenarios where they think that the class is overperforming but some things need to be put into the right perspective before asking for buffs or nerfs.

[Mishas]

Then it is also funny that you're also disputing havartii's "Magus has been top small scale for quite a while" claim, since that's the exact point i used against his "why ST and not AoE" argument. You're both arguing the recent ST changes didn't actually address what group content needs, just from opposite premises, he says that a magus is already strong small scale so AoE should've been prioritized, you say a magus was never strong there to begin with.

Also, i never claimed that a magus is top small scale myself, that was havartii's claim. I just used his own admission against his argument, so your "you guys having different thoughts about what small scale means" doesn't really apply to me here.

For clarity, when i say small scale, i mean things like 6v6s or 12v12s, not solo or full blob warband fights. If that's not what you or havartii mean, that might actually explain the disagreement.

See? That is whay you are not getting. I am not saying Magus is not strong, I am saying that is not strong ENOUGH for group content. In my opinion, Magus needed some little push to became a really good class in those scenarios. A heal debuff (tied to a pet if you like) and some changes on how the avoidances currently work would suffice. I think many people would agree on giving up some burst capability (burst should be a Sorcerer theme, not Magus anyway) for some of those changes.

Even in a 6vs6 or a 12vs12 its not the same if groups are not equally balanced. Healers and Tanks make all the difference. XvsX (no healers) Yes, Magus then its a monster. Why? because Magus damage output (specially AoE) is VERY high. However, is also very easily countered by healers healing output which makes sense (therefore is often called fluf damage).
The reason why I make this point is that someone might argue about what a monster a Magus is in certain scenario (which has happened A LOT on these threads) while disregarding the specific conditions.

As an additional note,I am sure you can notice how we started discussing over "small fights" (and probably between pugs) and solo roaming and now we are focused on structured small scale. Context is everything specially when asking for balance.

You said "Magus has never been top of any group content apart from maybe PvE". That's a pretty strong claim, got anything backing it up, or is that also "obviously just an opinion, not a fact" like you said about small scale a few posts ago?

On the ST changes not being "buffs," just QoL, fine, that's consistent with what you said earlier. I'm not arguing that this specific patch was some huge magus buff, that's a separate discussion from whether the magus's overall kit is appropriately tuned.

Well, yes, its indeed my opinion, like everything I say. If you need proof just use your common sense and look around while playing small scale. Magus is not popular in real premades. Most of the things that a Magus brings to the table in that kind of scale are often covered by other classes. I am not saying you will never see one because, yes, they are not bad but when it comes to optimizing stuff, Magus just does not make the cut.

I am nothing if not consistent. I may or may not explain myself correctly sometimes but my arguments are clear:
Magus might seem powerful while solo roaming but that does not mean it deserves an adjustment, specially not in terms of ST damage output since its already not enough for most grouped content.

[GelatinousCube]

Just when I thought things might be ok with insanely OP Witch Elfs getting nerfed....

Here comes insanely over-buffed Magus.

Crazy stuff.... can we still call it a "balance" team when this is what it produces?

What exactly happened in the patch that made magus "insanely over-buffed" in your opinion? I play Magus and I can tell you for a certainty that their ST damage is the same as it was pre-patch, when it was already peak in solo. The 45ft teleport that kills the pet is not very good, honestly.

Or are you just jumping on an opportunity to influence the opinions of people who read this thread by whining a lot, because you exclusively play on Order?

[J0t4ro]

That's not my argument, and reducing it to "every class is different" makes it easier for you to dismiss than what i actually said, and easier to call me shortsighted for it.

My point was specific: a DPS healer hybrid (which again, an example you brought up earlier) with strong solo sustain is a different kind of strength from a pure DPS with a magus's range, burst, and damage profile. That's not just "every class is different," that's a specific distinction about role and toolkit.

You're now arguing they're comparable in gameplay pattern (dot pressure, cc, casted burst, kiting), not in actual output. But similar rotation shape isn't the same as similar results. If they can't dish out the same output, how can they have the same offensive capabilities?

You yourself admitted that RPs or zealots don't have the 110ft burst, but you never made that same concession for AM/shaman or SW/SH, yet you're now lumping all of them into "comparable" together. Are you claiming they all have a magus's range and burst, or just assuming it because the rotation looks similar?

For RP and zealot, you at least admitted the burst gap exists and argued why it doesn't matter for solo roam. For the other ones you skipped that step entirely, you never said whether they have the same gap or not, you just called them comparable anyway.

Also notice you never actually answered the cleanse point. If healers are spending real resources cleansing a magus specifically, that's evidence it's a priority threat, not proof it's weak.

On "how can you balance one without affecting the other", i never said nerfs should ignore group consequences, so this isn't really a rebuttal to anything i said. It's a fair complication to keep in mind, but it doesn't make the solo problem less real, it just means the fix needs to be careful. Those are two different conversations.

I'll point out that earlier you stated the heal debuff makes SH/SW/MDPS "100% more effective" in group and that a magus's toolbox "goes down the toilet" as if it was fact. Now you're calling small scale underperformance "obviously just an opinion, not a fact." That's a pretty big shift from how confident you sounded a few posts ago.

You are very keen on that they can not output the same damage. They can not output the same sustain either. Once again, yes, they are not the same class and yet the gameplay is VERY similar, hence the comparison.

Regarding the cleanse point: Healers can spend resources specifically or pasively based on how they are specced but that was not my point. You say that them having to cleanse is evidence of a threat, well, it´s not. The only evidence is that they play to win and that by doing so little they are effectively neutralize an enemy. Now tell me if its so easy to do the same thing to a MDPS. You want evidence? Ask any of your healer friends about how afraid are them from facing a Magus. That will tell you all you need to know.

Facts vs opinions, what a great subject to bring up. Every single post is an opinon. Yours, mine, everyones. If you think that because I state that something is my opinion I am somehow shiftting my confidence on my arguments, sorry, that is not it.

I can tell you this for sure (opinion): Raw damage is not what makes Magus class special. There are other classes like Sorcerer that are more oriented to that (or should be). Magus is about utility + positioning while having enough damage to support it (because its still a dps nevertheless). However, in group content (small or big scale) most of that utility is voided by other players (inmunities for example). The bigger the scale, the more difficult it becomes to manage. This is the reason why while solo roaming Magus seems OP compared to other scales. In that context, all the tools are at his disposal and that is what it makes the class a very dangerous roamer.

My point has always been the same. There is a big difference between the "solo roaming" Magus, the "small scale" Magus and the "big scale" Magus. All I am stating on these type of threads is that people are often complaining about specific scenarios where they think that the class is overperforming but some things need to be put into the right perspective before asking for buffs or nerfs.

I mentioned sustain once, to describe the hybrid's strength, not as benchmark a magus needs to match. That's not the same as making sustain part of my argument, and it doesn't touch my actual point: similar gameplay pattern doesn't establish similar output or capability.

Saying "yes they're not the same class, but gameplay is similar, hence comparison" a third time doesn't answer why pattern similarity should mean capability parity. That's the actual question you keep skipping.

On cleanse: "healers playing well and using few resources" and "cleanse spend proves threat" aren't mutually exclusive, a class can be dangerous enough to require exactly that kind of efficient response.

You're also asking me to compare it to how hard it is to do the same to an MDPS, but you haven't actually shown MDPS require proportionally more resources either, that's asserted, not demonstrated.

And "ask healers how afraid they are of a magus" is anecdotal, not evidence. If you've got parses or real numbers behind the "100% more effective" claim, or behind the idea that MDPS take comparatively more resources to shut down, i'd actually like to see them, that would settle this properly instead of anecdotes on either side.

On facts vs opinions: sure, everything is technically an opinion, that's not what i said. The point was that you stated "100% more effective" and "goes down the toilet" with total confidence, then called a similar type of claim "obviously just an opinion" a few posts later.

That's not a philosophical point about the nature of opinions, that's an inconsistency in how confidently you present your own claims depending on which one you're making.

On the solo/small/big scale framework, this is the first time you've laid this out clearly, and i don't disagree with the general shape of it. But your "never top of any group content" claim doesn't actually fit your own model.

If power gradually decreases with scale like you're describing, that leaves room for the magus to still be competitive at small scale, just less dominant than solo.

Your "never top of any group content" is a much flatter, more absolute claim than the gradual scaling model you just laid out, so which one is it: gradual decline, or never competitive at all?