[Split] Marauder discussion

[foof]

Since the sheer amount of ignorance in this thread is reaching critical mass, I'll explain what makes Marauders a good class, and why if you remove their tools, you will ruin them.

Currently what is the Marauders purpose?

The Marauder is a medium armored MDPS class that has a stance locking mechanic.

Savagery is used for debuffing. In this stance, the Marauder has decent sustained damage, but low burst.

Brutality is used for single target damage. In this stance, the Marauder has good burst and sustained damage, but low debuffs.

Monstro is used for trying to survive against melee trains, and for fluff AoE damage. In this stance, the Marauder has bad damage and bad debuffs.

What are these amazing debuffs Marauder has?

The Marauder has a Wounds debuff.
The Marauder has an Armor debuff.
The Marauder has a Heal debuff (that requires a tactic slot used to be any good).

This is the majority extent of the Marauders "good" debuffs (they have a toughness debuff too, its usually not worth using later on unless the target is extremely hard to take down). Yes that is right, three whole debuffs! Oh my god so OP.

When the Marauder swaps over to do burst damage (Brutality), they lose access to both heal, and armor debuffs. So the Marauder will often be in Savagery to apply debuffs, swap over to Brutality to deal damage, and swap back to Savagery to re-apply debuffs. As the debuffs last roughly 10 seconds (outside of the wounds which is 20), the Marauder will spend about 50% of their time debuffing, and not doing their burst damage.

When you switch a stance, you are locked from switching other stances for 5 seconds. You cannot just swap whenever you want, and this is critical. A Marauder cannot debuff and deal high damage all at the same time. They pick one or the other, and then are locked into that for at least 5 seconds.

The Marauder deals good damage! Yes, it is an MDPS class, and it should be able to deal some damage. The Marauder still, to this day, doesn't have the damage of the Choppa or Slayer (and shouldn't), nor does it even have the front-loaded burst of a WL.

The key problem with most "nerf marauder" whines, is the crux of their argument comes down to this:

The Marauder shouldn't have access to their THREE decent debuffs, and be able to deal damage. Three debuffs is clearly waaaay too much utility. Also, they shouldn't be able to have good damage while also being SOOO tank-like survivable (and they are never tank level survivable and when they are trying to stay alive from melee trains in Monstro they can do barely anything else, they lose access to their debuffs and damage).

The main problem is, people don't understand how the class works, they don't understand how stances work, they look at the class on paper and go "hurrr durr they have access to debuffs, damage and survivability, must be OP!". The problem is, that is not how the class works, or has ever worked. If you want survivability, your debuff and damage is terrible. While you are debuffing, you lose your survivability and burst damage. And while you are trying to deal your burst damage, you can't apply your debuffs nor is your survivability good. You don't get everything just because it is in the career builder on the website.

In a best case situation, the Marauder spends about 50% of its time in Savagery applying debuffs, and 50% in Brutality, trying to deal damage to those debuffed targets before those debuffs wear off and they do it again.

THIS IS WHAT THE CLASS WAS DESIGNED TO DO. THIS IS THE POINT OF THE CLASS.

People who cry nerf on the Marauder class over and over again make some very ridiculous arguments. In their minds, the Marauder has access to every ability at once, stances don't have cooldown, and the world is made out of cotton candy or some ****.

The Marauder already chooses between debuffs, damage, and survivability. It's called their stances.

The Marauder has some better debuffs than other MDPS classes when taken as a whole. However, things like ID definitely make the argument that the Marauder has "too much debuffs", a bit silly. Most MDPS classes have some kind of debuffs, and the ones that are deficient on debuffs (like the WL) have something else to compensate (mobility in the WLs case).

So the point being is:

If the Marauder cannot debuff and deal damage, what is the purpose of the class? This is how its paths are designed, this is how the class was designed, and this is why it was changed over the years to actually be able to play as an MDPS class instead of a toughness stacking debuff bot. Marauders damage used to be a complete joke, until people like me made enough compelling arguments to the devs to actually get the class buffed to be good. That's where it is now, and you just want to gut it again.

The choice is not "the Marauder should have to choose between debuffs and damage", the choice is "if Marauders can't debuff and damage, I'll choose to play a class that isn't a joke".

The Marauder has a very specific role and niche. It can apply some solid, good, single target debuffs, and switch over to deal single target damage. That is all it really can do well. Removing this neuters the class into once again being "just bad debuff bots".

If you take away the Marauders ability to debuff, they are a bad version of every other MDPS class, without tools needed to fulfull their role. People like to talk about Marauders debuffs on and on again like they get so many (they don't) and ignore all the debuffs/buffs/and utility skills other MDPS classes have.

If you take away the Marauders damage, they are a bad version of a debuff tank that has no guard and no tank tools to do anything useful. This is how Marauders were for the first two years of WAR. Nobody needs to theorize on what it was like, because we've already experienced it.

So any call for nerfs to Marauder need to be framed in such a way that doesn't totally ruin the class. It may your personal opinion that they do too much damage (I don't think this is the case), and if that's the case, make a suggestion about how to tune their damage down without making them inable to do damage and debuff. It may be your personal opinons that the Marauders debuffs are too good (this definitely isn't the case, but one could make the argument, and if you believe that, try to re-work the debuffs to where you think they are balanced, not remove the Marauders ability to debuff or damage properly.

The reality is that people like to think about the Marauder in a vacuum and don't compare it to other MDPS classes.

Compared to a WL a Marauder:

Has better sustained damage, and worse burst.
Has better debuffs, but worse mobility.
Has similar survivability (both med armor, pounce gets you out of melee trains, monstro armor pen helps your try to tank them).

So the Marauder trades mobility for debuffs vs a WL.

Compared to a Choppa/Slayer a Marauder:

Has less damage, especially AoE.
Has better single target debuffs (but worse group utility/Aoe debuffs)
Has better survivability

So the Marauder trades survivability for damage vs a Choppa/Slayer.

I could go into WH/WE, but that trade should be obvious to those who know how the WH/WE are unique in the MDPS category (basically its stealth and burst vs sustained and survivability).

If the Marauder cannot debuff and deal damage, then its a broken and bad class.

Should the WL have to give up pounce and it's snares to deal damage?
Should the Choppa/Slayer have to give up their AoE to deal single target damage?

It's the same kind of bad arguments.

The reality is the Marauder is probably the most "well-rounded" MDPS class at the moment. Which is why a lot of people can't grasp that is isn't OP. It doesn't have the best damage by any means, but it does good damage. It doesn't have "tank like" survivability, but it has good survivability for a MDPS class, it doesn't have "all the best debuffs", but it has good debuffs, it doesn't have "horrible mobility", but has decent mobility. Etc.. The Marauder is a "jack of all trades" kind of MDPS class, capable of a lot of things but having no special role outside of the most potent single target debuffs, and the best physical survivability. However, as explained above, a Marauder simply can't do everything at once. This is why it is a stance based class. You don't have your high survivability while you are able to deal damage or debuff, you have to pick one of these things and stick with it. Yes you can swap to another thing when the timing is right, that is how the class was designed and meant to be played.

[Tesq]

wtf so you are gona argument with a text wall that cos mara need to bind to

f1
f2
f3

his stances and you also had to to swap (look to play) that's mean that it's badder than other mpds?

"The Marauder has a very specific role and niche. It can apply some solid, good, single target debuffs, and switch over to deal single target damage. That is all it really can do well. Removing this neuters the class into once again being "just bad debuff bots""

ye cos apply 2-3 debuff then swap and hit like a truck and being unkillable is called """"""choose""""".....

"The Marauder already chooses between debuffs, damage, and survivability. It's called their stances."

lol k .... 5 sec swap stance to apply a 2x 50% heal debuff + drain then back to damage stance, 5 sec cd on stances it's a **** joke.....

can someone tell him to stop with these arguments....

[Euan]

Since the sheer amount of ignorance in this thread is reaching critical mass, I'll explain what makes Marauders a good class, and why if you remove their tools, you will ruin them.

Currently what is the Marauders purpose?

The Marauder is a medium armored MDPS class that has a stance locking mechanic.

Savagery is used for debuffing. In this stance, the Marauder has decent sustained damage, but low burst.

Brutality is used for single target damage. In this stance, the Marauder has good burst and sustained damage, but low debuffs.

Monstro is used for trying to survive against melee trains, and for fluff AoE damage. In this stance, the Marauder has bad damage and bad debuffs.

What are these amazing debuffs Marauder has?

The Marauder has a Wounds debuff.
The Marauder has an Armor debuff.
The Marauder has a Heal debuff (that requires a tactic slot used to be any good).

This is the majority extent of the Marauders "good" debuffs (they have a toughness debuff too, its usually not worth using later on unless the target is extremely hard to take down). Yes that is right, three whole debuffs! Oh my god so OP.

When the Marauder swaps over to do burst damage (Brutality), they lose access to both heal, and armor debuffs. So the Marauder will often be in Savagery to apply debuffs, swap over to Brutality to deal damage, and swap back to Savagery to re-apply debuffs. As the debuffs last roughly 10 seconds (outside of the wounds which is 20), the Marauder will spend about 50% of their time debuffing, and not doing their burst damage.

When you switch a stance, you are locked from switching other stances for 5 seconds. You cannot just swap whenever you want, and this is critical. A Marauder cannot debuff and deal high damage all at the same time. They pick one or the other, and then are locked into that for at least 5 seconds.

The Marauder deals good damage! Yes, it is an MDPS class, and it should be able to deal some damage. The Marauder still, to this day, doesn't have the damage of the Choppa or Slayer (and shouldn't), nor does it even have the front-loaded burst of a WL.

The key problem with most "nerf marauder" whines, is the crux of their argument comes down to this:

The Marauder shouldn't have access to their THREE decent debuffs, and be able to deal damage. Three debuffs is clearly waaaay too much utility. Also, they shouldn't be able to have good damage while also being SOOO tank-like survivable (and they are never tank level survivable and when they are trying to stay alive from melee trains in Monstro they can do barely anything else, they lose access to their debuffs and damage).

The main problem is, people don't understand how the class works, they don't understand how stances work, they look at the class on paper and go "hurrr durr they have access to debuffs, damage and survivability, must be OP!". The problem is, that is not how the class works, or has ever worked. If you want survivability, your debuff and damage is terrible. While you are debuffing, you lose your survivability and burst damage. And while you are trying to deal your burst damage, you can't apply your debuffs nor is your survivability good. You don't get everything just because it is in the career builder on the website.

In a best case situation, the Marauder spends about 50% of its time in Savagery applying debuffs, and 50% in Brutality, trying to deal damage to those debuffed targets before those debuffs wear off and they do it again.

THIS IS WHAT THE CLASS WAS DESIGNED TO DO. THIS IS THE POINT OF THE CLASS.

People who cry nerf on the Marauder class over and over again make some very ridiculous arguments. In their minds, the Marauder has access to every ability at once, stances don't have cooldown, and the world is made out of cotton candy or some ****.

The Marauder already chooses between debuffs, damage, and survivability. It's called their stances.

The Marauder has some better debuffs than other MDPS classes when taken as a whole. However, things like ID definitely make the argument that the Marauder has "too much debuffs", a bit silly. Most MDPS classes have some kind of debuffs, and the ones that are deficient on debuffs (like the WL) have something else to compensate (mobility in the WLs case).

/thread

[Tesq]

after some of these posts is clear as the sun that some ppl dont want their shiny tools touch or they are rather medium-poor player.

[foof]

after some of these posts is clear as the sun that some ppl dont want their shiny tools touch or they are rather medium-poor player.

Ah the good old ad-hominem logical fallcy.

Here is a wikipedia link for you, educate yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

[Tesq]

i'm not shorth of argument i'm sick of always repeat the same 2-3 reply cos your argument are realy bad

you told me that mara is hard cos you need to swap stances-->lol
that is not strong cos they have a 5 sec CD --->lol
that you have to choose cos you use 1 stances only ---> lol ( no you dont cos swap mean you can have both in the same build)
That mara do less damage than slayer and is wrong --->mara do at higher levels more damage in st that any other melee in long chain while slayer is the king of aoe.

for last time

-50% heal debuff+ 50% hp drain
-armor debuff
-wounds debuff (not really good for me but anyway)

swap stance and then


-25% damage increase
channeling
-etc (other offensive skills like impale etc)
-guillotine


always active
50% crit damage
20 crit chance after 1 crit
50% ingore armor on mutation

please stop to explain me how to play mara, is retard how you just start on sav do 3 debuff, swap on brut and finish the job....

good night /bye

[Ungrin]

after some of these posts is clear as the sun that some ppl dont want their shiny tools touch or they are rather medium-poor player.

Ah the good old ad-hominem logical fallcy.

Here is a wikipedia link for you, educate yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I disagree. You can literally nerf-button the mara onto 1 button and just destroy people. I've seen it done.. it's extremely easy to keep someone debuffed 100% of the time and be bursting like crazy. It's literally a 1 button class with NB. Before you start talking about, 'WELL WITHOUT NB IT'S NOT THAT EASY!!!" Sure, but we have NB and people will use it. Therefore, you either bring the class in line so that the potential it can be is in line with other classes and raise the skill ceiling on the class, or turn a blind-eye to how OP the class is so that EVERYONE will be running Mara trains ( which WILL happen.. it was the case on live). Mara trains were around all the time, why do you think every competitive group ran 2 marauders?

Suicide Yoooo
TFC
Aluba Shrimp..

All the good Destro guilds ran 2 Chosen or 1Ch/1BG, 2 marauders, and 2 doks. If the class was balanced or missing something they would have had another mDPS in the group. It was just too strong. Look at order:

2 KotBS / 2 Slayer / 2 WP. Is slayer OP? **** yea it's op.. why even try to deny it? Because you play the class? You played that marauder basically the entire time on live, we know you like it, why pretend like you're on the side of balance? You're clearly trying to keep the marauder way above anything else in the game so that you can be a Main DPS of any group and be godlike with Gaurd and pocket heals behind you. The problem is, the class is overpowered and once we hit t4 the forums will light up like a damn christmas tree about marauder nerfs and the class will be nerfed anyway.

I don't care what they nerf/buff, I play the game for fun and have no problem pointing out what's OP on either side.

Mara is OP
Slayer is OP

[Tesq]

no NB is not really need; when you change stance you also swap skills, you need nb to bind skills and save space to be faster but with 4-5 skill in every stance to use it's like warhamemr online have his own incorporate NB alredy inside mara.

[Ungrin]

no NB is not really need; when you change stance you also swap skills, you need nb to bind skills and save space to be faster but with 4-5 skill in every stance to use it's like warhamemr online have his own incorporate NB alredy inside mara.

Just saying you can literally still NB the entire rotation of the marauder and keep anyone you want to 100% debuffed. Wounds, Armor, Toughness, Heal debuffed 100% uptime and on top of burst them when they get low.

The marauder is the swiss army knife of Destro. The problem lies in the fact that It's the ONLY viable DPS for competitive groups, so of course destruction doesn't want it nerfed. They're scared they will be nerfed into the ground. The other mDPS and DPS needs to be buffed to compensate and be in line with order's. That's how you get people to relax and accept balance.

[Tesq]

in fact the whole issue is nerf mara x nerf slayer

nerf dosen't mean destroy 1 class-----> ppl what their classes to be swapable each other not to have "alpha " classes for each role.

The hard is buff/fix choppa/wl cos if we cannot change the client is really hard do something on those classes.