2 queries about marauder

[magter3001]

Individually these abilities arnt a problem BUT when they are all on the same class you get a class that amazingly strong and once again what does this class give up to get all this? Nothing not survivability like chops or slayer or have to for go other strong abilities (like chosen's do), with brut and sav your good to go with no need to spec in monstro unless you want another KD.

This class has everything that all its basically lacking to be the perfect class is guard and self heal.

Spoiler:

ヽ(◉◡◔)ﾉ I'M A MYTHIC DEV AND IM TOTALLY NOT BIASED TO THE CLASS I MAINヽ(◉◡◔)ﾉ 

Yet a KotBS also doesn't have strong abilities all in one class. Yes, destro classes need nerfs so badly because Order can't play their characters right.
/sarcasm off

You do realize that classes don't have a disarm yet right? Many abilities will come out soon for all classes. Abilities like incoming heal debuff, disarm, more kd, punts, group heals... and on and on it goes. Relax, it's only T1.

[Xaun]

Ok let me ask you this question, in order to deal the damage expected of an mdps what does maras give up?

err....basically - their ability to dps & debuff

all the goodies you/people whine about - heal debuff, armor debuff, ap drain etc are not available in the dps stance and certainly not in the defence stance.

Undoubtedly, Mara's have strong utility, but don't bullshit as if the Mara is indestructible AND strong debuff AND strong dps at the same time - that is a complete fallacy.

Just like Choppas and Slayers having increased dps and being more fragile when enraged, then dropping rage (and dps output) when they need to be less vulnerable - the Marauder is either in a dps stance, a debuff stance or a defence stance. Additionally there is a CD before they can re-enter a prior stance (unlike dropping rage which is anytime)

If you want to talk about a class having it's cake and eating it - see Slayer and Knight (from experience).

Classes like choppa, slayer, we, and wh give up survivability but all mara needs to do is simply switch a stance and the class suddenly gets the survivability of an off-class tank

silly exaggeration - as you don't suddenly gain 4k wounds and 300 armor and several hundred resists

Switching to Monstro doesn't remotely give you a get-out-jail-free card when on low health. The optimal benefit comes (as Luth mentioned I think) in a 1v1 where you start in Monstro, weather the initial burst and hope that the enemy doesn't have ranged/pet snare, ranged knockdown, barb-on-movement, knockback, knockdown, ranged knockback or lifetap. {ahem} ofc, the opposition will say "there is Mara-Pull", knowing full-well that if the enemy stands on anything taller than a pebble they are safe...

...in a group/mass battle environment switching to Monstro is not even a speedbump to damage-taken

Deadly clutch gave maras insane survivability, and it was bugged on live to be absorb all the heals and was never fixed

Let me expand, **IF** you slot the Deadly Clutch tactic you debuff their incomind heals by 50% and then recieve 50 % of the heals ACTUALLY recieved by the target for the duration of that debuff (5s) - not to be sniffed at for sure - but remember

1. this is a Savagery-stance-only debuff (not Monstro so don't confuse this as Maras getting both simultaneously)
2. if the target isn't being healed, the Mara is getting 50% of 50% of zero (for those who need help with math, that's 0)
3. they are not slotting one (or more) of the following Piercing Bite, Feeding on Fear, Flanking, Growing Instability, Brute Force, Deeply Impaled

Almost always 100% guaranteed crits on targets below 50% with guillotine and ofc cant forget growing instability + feeding on fear (and guillotine is so low on the tree you dont even need to end that many points for it)

You're complaining about the 1 finisher?

cutting claw removing 1000 armor also let the class take on takes easily

...assuming you meant tanks, and whilst the attack itself is undefendable, this doesn't mean that subsequent attacks aren't subject to block/parry/still insane armor/high toughness/high wounds.. or do you mean take on Dps tanks easily?

lol - it's not like he is getting"For the next 10 seconds, your attacks can't be Blocked or Parried. If you are Furious, increase duration to 20seconds" - I mean that would be ridiculous right? waitwut?

tough and wound debuff and dmg on melee attacks via touch of rot.

So. You have issues with a 10s duration, 20s cooldown, melee-self-barb that affects one person

But I would guess you're not opposed to *everyone in the freaking group* having an endless self-barb on anyone who has the temerity to hit them in melee...

Btw I'd be happy to sacrifice Touch of Rot on Mara, and give Chosen "On your Guard"

5 second [MORALE]root, AoE innterupt, ranged kd on disrupt

...which almost never occurs, since Maras don't stack willpower, and is wholly different to an anytime ranged kd

the lame ass pull (which worked more that wl fetch which was basically broken on live)

...unless there was the remotest Z-axis difference... in which case it worked about as reliably as "don't worry honey, I'll pull out" method of contraception on Spring Break

Oh and cant forget about that m4 with 20s 150% damage reflect

Now you're just being silly.

1. That's an M4 and takes an age to get to
2. It's VERY VERY VERY rare that you get the chance to use it
3. Unless you're healed out the wazooo you will either never use it effectively for the duration or be dead before it expires (I've only seen it used effectively as Champ in City)
4. No realistic spec incorporates that without losing a tonne of other (almost mandatory) abilities

Individually these abilities arnt a problem BUT when they are all on the same class

...but, definitively, unquestionably cannot be used at the same time.

you get a class that amazingly strong and once again what does this class give up to get all this? Nothing not survivability like chops or slayer or have to for go other strong abilities (like chosen's do), with brut and sav your good to go with no need to spec in monstro unless you want another KD.

Order perpetuated fallacy addressed earlier in this post

Spoiler:

ヽ(◉◡◔)ﾉ I'M A MYTHIC DEV AND IM TOTALLY NOT BIASED TO THE ORDER CLASS I MAIN, like Slayer, Knight, BW, WPヽ(◉◡◔)ﾉ 

[Morf]

Do share how to “counter” rampage, im not being snarky or anything im genuinely curious.

Rampage is what allowed slayers to tear through tanks and deal strong AoE damage, the only reason I feel that people say chop’s have better ST dmg is because of stab you godder letting them have bigger crits and maybe get stuck in AA buff, but because of rampage most slayers just spec up to that in 2h tree and put rest of points in aoe tree with a 2h letting them buff those survivability abilities where as no choppas will ever touch their aoe tree because their nerfed get to da choppa hard among other things (seriously wth is their such a big cd time difference between shatter limbs and chop fasta?) forcing most into this cookie cutter spec

Rampage is just too good of an ability

This is what im saying about skills ppl call OP, most dont know how they work and dont bother trying to understand how it works...Rampage all you need to do is shatter the buff.
Any decent tank shouldnt lose to a slayer when spec correctly.
Rampage is not in the 2h path its trollslayer, nobody put points into 2h path unless they actually went 2h and nobody put points into the aoe path with 2h because it makes no sense.
Stab you gooder, aa buff (which slayers basically have as a tactic) and because spec'ing further into the path of the savage increased your ST damage skills where as slayers put everythng into skaven path after rampage and heal debuff.

By no means am i saying choppa over slayer tho they are not to far apart and with a few minor changes things should work out well

[Dajciekrwi]

All what i read here about a change stance, etc its a pretty thing but in theory.

But the prctice is Queen of all science, they say. So let make a experiment - begin some maras event and try swifty change stances when middle on fight, and do all the teoretic miracles.
For example, in some monday event, my enemy addon shows that Zeviul Lion Warrior kill 29 to 2 and Godswill WH kill 27-2. That scores speaks to me , but i dont demand to nerf that classes. In these event ( im poor maras ever in whole game,ppl say) i kill 18-8 (and all maras swarm -3).
So ask - what a problem?

The truth is simply and sad, if y a not party who cares about y, you are just cannon food, alomst like in real war .
Espcially , if y a order mdps, because Order plays mostly a rpds, so they see all non-party mdps, only as a kind of a living wall.
So if y want fight in Army od Destruction or Order y must be a party of that army, no excuses.

[Xaun]

Do share how to “counter” rampage, im not being snarky or anything im genuinely curious.

Rampage is what allowed slayers to tear through tanks and deal strong AoE damage, the only reason I feel that people say chop’s have better ST dmg is because of stab you godder letting them have bigger crits and maybe get stuck in AA buff, but because of rampage most slayers just spec up to that in 2h tree and put rest of points in aoe tree with a 2h letting them buff those survivability abilities where as no choppas will ever touch their aoe tree because their nerfed get to da choppa hard among other things (seriously wth is their such a big cd time difference between shatter limbs and chop fasta?) forcing most into this cookie cutter spec

Rampage is just too good of an ability

This is what im saying about skills ppl call OP, most dont know how they work and dont bother trying to understand how it works...Rampage all you need to do is shatter the buff.
Any decent tank shouldnt lose to a slayer when spec correctly.

1. From the Destro side, there are 3 classes with Shatter Enchantment, BG/BO/DoK - most likely the DoK won't be running -toward- the combine-harvester that is the Slayer, and BG/BO are far fewer than Chosen. Furthermore, in T4 at least, there are far more Slayers on the field than BO/BG

2. The Slayer isn't using Rampage for the dmg -it- causes, he's using it to 100% deploy other abilities like Heal Debuff, Shatter Limbs, No Escape and ofc (the non cleansable) Inevitable Doom along with all the bonus group dps-adds (Reckless Gamble, Flames of Rhuin, Prayers etc) to a constantly spreading audience

Chances are that even if there is a BG/BO who has made it his job to follow that (out of the many) Slayer(s) around and Shatter Rampage whenever he pops it, he will still be able to get Shatter Limbs and ID off before the tank can Shatter it and as such its job is done anyway.

Rampage is not in the 2h path its trollslayer, nobody put points into 2h path unless they actually went 2h and nobody put points into the aoe path with 2h because it makes no sense.
Stab you gooder, aa buff (which slayers basically have as a tactic) and because spec'ing further into the path of the savage increased your ST damage skills where as slayers put everythng into skaven path after rampage and heal debuff.

By no means am i saying choppa over slayer tho they are not to far apart and with a few minor changes things should work out well

Regarding Order tactics for +AA Haste (guaranteed dmg) vs Destro +crit damage (boosted dmg IF you crit) - I think Annaise iirc did some extensive testing and even prior to the new renown system - this yielded more dmg for Order based on normal T4 levels of crit (35-40% iirc) - ofc the more you stacked crit, the stronger the +crit dmg became

Then that got royally bugg3r3d in the new renown system with the advent of Trivial Blows which hurt Destro mdps far more than Order mdps

[Coryphaus]

Yet a KotBS also doesn't have strong abilities all in one class.

I just want to point out KOBS stands head and shoulders above all other tanks in the game simply because its too good, i hold the personal opinion that chosens are one of the most balanced classes in the game, (a class that had the potential to be very op but was not) but kobs is the exact example of what could have happend, so let me quote Tesq

-on your guard:physic beackslash damage on melee instead on magic damage like chosen
-focused mending : +15% heal to all party.....
-dirty tricks: when block all group gain 10% crit chance to damage/heal.....
-encourage aim: all enemy in the rage are more easy to crit of 10%....
-Vigilance: not cleanseable damage reduction for 50%.....
-chance to stack his armor penetration until 75% with a combination of runefang + precision strike + wep skill.....
-a ST snare that can became aoe 4 ppl
-ST interrupt....
-shatter confidence....
-undefiteable moral root that can only be break by juggernaut and melee version but cannot be cleanse by healer in any way ( so if you are a tank/melee and you have alredy used that skill or you are a rdp/healer you are ****)
-have all the other good things chosen have as super punt and wounds debuff with the exeption of increase moral tactic (destinated to victory)..........

pack a lot of these things togheter now you know why order player 1kobs 1IB 2 slayer 2 wp premade party set-up.

And lets not forget about that nonsense M3 morale 10s root

Furthermore Morf i also disagree that Shatter enchantment counters rampage simply because ike xaun said only 3 classes have it and it only destroys one but a slayer could have multiple enchantments on them like flames of rhuin, shield of sapheny, oath rune of power so its luck if you destroy rampage

[Kaitanaroyr]

Ok let me ask you this question, in order to deal the damage expected of an mdps what does maras give up?

err....basically - their ability to dps & debuff

all the goodies you/people whine about - heal debuff, armor debuff, ap drain etc are not available in the dps stance and certainly not in the defence stance.

Undoubtedly, Mara's have strong utility, but don't bullshit as if the Mara is indestructible AND strong debuff AND strong dps at the same time - that is a complete fallacy.

Just like Choppas and Slayers having increased dps and being more fragile when enraged, then dropping rage (and dps output) when they need to be less vulnerable - the Marauder is either in a dps stance, a debuff stance or a defence stance. Additionally there is a CD before they can re-enter a prior stance (unlike dropping rage which is anytime)

If you want to talk about a class having it's cake and eating it - see Slayer and Knight (from experience).

Classes like choppa, slayer, we, and wh give up survivability but all mara needs to do is simply switch a stance and the class suddenly gets the survivability of an off-class tank

silly exaggeration - as you don't suddenly gain 4k wounds and 300 armor and several hundred resists

Switching to Monstro doesn't remotely give you a get-out-jail-free card when on low health. The optimal benefit comes (as Luth mentioned I think) in a 1v1 where you start in Monstro, weather the initial burst and hope that the enemy doesn't have ranged/pet snare, ranged knockdown, barb-on-movement, knockback, knockdown, ranged knockback or lifetap. {ahem} ofc, the opposition will say "there is Mara-Pull", knowing full-well that if the enemy stands on anything taller than a pebble they are safe...

...in a group/mass battle environment switching to Monstro is not even a speedbump to damage-taken

Deadly clutch gave maras insane survivability, and it was bugged on live to be absorb all the heals and was never fixed

Let me expand, **IF** you slot the Deadly Clutch tactic you debuff their incomind heals by 50% and then recieve 50 % of the heals ACTUALLY recieved by the target for the duration of that debuff (5s) - not to be sniffed at for sure - but remember

1. this is a Savagery-stance-only debuff (not Monstro so don't confuse this as Maras getting both simultaneously)
2. if the target isn't being healed, the Mara is getting 50% of 50% of zero (for those who need help with math, that's 0)
3. they are not slotting one (or more) of the following Piercing Bite, Feeding on Fear, Flanking, Growing Instability, Brute Force, Deeply Impaled

Almost always 100% guaranteed crits on targets below 50% with guillotine and ofc cant forget growing instability + feeding on fear (and guillotine is so low on the tree you dont even need to end that many points for it)

You're complaining about the 1 finisher?

cutting claw removing 1000 armor also let the class take on takes easily

...assuming you meant tanks, and whilst the attack itself is undefendable, this doesn't mean that subsequent attacks aren't subject to block/parry/still insane armor/high toughness/high wounds.. or do you mean take on Dps tanks easily?

lol - it's not like he is getting"For the next 10 seconds, your attacks can't be Blocked or Parried. If you are Furious, increase duration to 20seconds" - I mean that would be ridiculous right? waitwut?

tough and wound debuff and dmg on melee attacks via touch of rot.

So. You have issues with a 10s duration, 20s cooldown, melee-self-barb that affects one person

But I would guess you're not opposed to *everyone in the freaking group* having an endless self-barb on anyone who has the temerity to hit them in melee...

Btw I'd be happy to sacrifice Touch of Rot on Mara, and give Chosen "On your Guard"

5 second [MORALE]root, AoE innterupt, ranged kd on disrupt

...which almost never occurs, since Maras don't stack willpower, and is wholly different to an anytime ranged kd

the lame ass pull (which worked more that wl fetch which was basically broken on live)

...unless there was the remotest Z-axis difference... in which case it worked about as reliably as "don't worry honey, I'll pull out" method of contraception on Spring Break

Oh and cant forget about that m4 with 20s 150% damage reflect

Now you're just being silly.

1. That's an M4 and takes an age to get to
2. It's VERY VERY VERY rare that you get the chance to use it
3. Unless you're healed out the wazooo you will either never use it effectively for the duration or be dead before it expires (I've only seen it used effectively as Champ in City)
4. No realistic spec incorporates that without losing a tonne of other (almost mandatory) abilities

Individually these abilities arnt a problem BUT when they are all on the same class

...but, definitively, unquestionably cannot be used at the same time.

you get a class that amazingly strong and once again what does this class give up to get all this? Nothing not survivability like chops or slayer or have to for go other strong abilities (like chosen's do), with brut and sav your good to go with no need to spec in monstro unless you want another KD.

Order perpetuated fallacy addressed earlier in this post

Spoiler:

ヽ(◉◡◔)ﾉ I'M A MYTHIC DEV AND IM TOTALLY NOT BIASED TO THE ORDER CLASS I MAIN, like Slayer, Knight, BW, WPヽ(◉◡◔)ﾉ 

The mara pull worked way better than the wls rarely did terrain stop me from yanking someone on mine yet the slightest bump or pebble could fail fetch.

[Moeroes]

I did not play a WL in t4 but a mara and the pull was unreliable as crap. If your enemy moved like one inch on the z axis it never worked and like 30% of the time it didn't go off for no reason.

[Coryphaus]

30% is still better than like the 60% with fetch

[Moeroes]

30% is still better than like the 60% with fetch

No doubt about that, it just seems a lot of order players believe the mara pull to work every time which is simply not true.