State of Mdps 6emn squad for ORDER

[Vibax]

Hello,
Before the balancing on dps class I wanted to post my take on the game surrounding the melee dps for single target (ST) partys on order side. This might touch on the WB aspect of certain class but will mainly focus around ST so please don't bring this to the blob topic .
I'm talking here of 6 mens squad facing good opposition, your personnal exp in 1v1's are irrelevent here (sorry :p).
After the recent patch and the nerf to double SL DW comp wich was the best comp for SC's Mdps we can start talking about true single target (ST) comp.
I am a Order main (but not prider, I also play destro), and played a lot of different dps class on order.

I'll overview bellow each Melee dps (Mdps) class with what they bring regarding CC's, Utility, DPS, weakness.
The class and spec i'll be covering are : White Lions (WL), Assault Shadow Warriors (ASW), 2Handers Slayers (2hSL), Witch Hunters (WH) and Wrath Warrior Priest (WWP).

White Lions:
Hard CC's : M1 unbreakable range root (Incredibly powerfull VS range and healers since they don't have a breafree ability), Knock Down (KD) [Spec], Silence [Spec], Fetch. Total of 4 = S TIER
Utility : Armor Debuff (best one on Order side, without requirement), Interupt, Outgoing Healdebuff (all those abilitys are in the tree spec so you gotta chose since you can't get them all). Jump, its really hard to get away from a WL, creating space between them and you is almost impossible, and he can gap close or switch target very easyly.A++ TIER , just missing that key tool, incoming healdebuff on demand.
DPS : Due to all the CC's, the extra utility from mobility armor debuff, pet harassing you from distance and possibly the execute ability + 2hander with bloodlord weapon, the class is very bursty, stays on the target and drop massiv damage : S TIER
Weakness: Don't bring an incoming heal debuff (can slot the fort weapon if there is no better option but still), Playing with a "buggy" pet that get focus. The WL must be playing with some tactic around the pet wich can be frustrating.
Side note: The only way to counter a WL is to kill the pet, lots of damage & CC's comes from it. If the pet isnt getting killed constantly a good white lion will do massiv work for his squad. Therefor the pet can't be to tanky wich stop WL from using it in WB and don't allow order to have ST pulls in WB.
General : S TIER , this is a must in every ST comp. Any comp would underperform compare to one with a WL.

Assault Shadow Warriors:
Hard CC's: KD's (1 melee from spec + 1 mid range [65 feet] if vengefull), Disarm.
Bringing strong CC's with a mid range KD to help gap close for your squad S TIER
Utility : 10% increase chance to crit for your squad on a target, range snare, very powerfull heald debuff (no CD but req ailing on target). Has a gap closer (45 feet like white lion but 20 sec CD [10 sec for white lions, wich is base lane on the class]), AP buff for the party. Overall brings very good utility to the squad helping a lot the other dps of the squad and the tank to get to the target : S TIER
Damage : The ASW isnt the most bursty class but can still harass an oppenant from distance, isnt the most bursty of the Mdps. A TIER
Weakness : Dont have a Charge and a breakfree abilitie, it has a backflip to help him create space underpressure but the ability can get parryed and wont work then. No aoe detaunt. Balance that with strong defensiv tools and high avoidance. Could use Shadowstep to get away but then will waste the only gap closer it has.
General : One of the best at assisting and helping his squad to gap close and kill a target, true team player A++ TIER

2 hand Slayers:
Hard CC's: KD (undefendable but release the rage), does'nt bring much in regard of CC's B Tier
Utility: Spellbreaker, unique ability very strong main damage ability with great utility for killing the target, heal debuff, party buff (AP). If played with short temper, and full red low CD on KD and healdbuff. A TIER
Damage: If the SL gets to his target (might need help from his teammates), he will drop massiv burst damage with bloodlord 2h & spellbreaker. Don't let him touch you of you will suffer S TIER .
Weakness: The class needs a team helping him getting onto the targets, no gap closer, just has charge has escape and catch up tools. You pretty much have to play it full red so your squishy, be carefull.
General : Very dependant on the team around him, low CC, ok utility great damage : A TIER

Wich Hunters :
Hard CC's: Silence, Disarm, KD's (from spec Dragon gun [short range 30 feet] and pistol wip [from behind]. Brings decent CC's to the squad, can engage invis securing a key KD. Compare to ASW just behind it, with a shorter range KD and a positional requirement for the other one (can hardly get both KD's since they are both speced one. A++ TIER
Utility: Double healdebuff is an option (outgoing and incoming). Can bring a big toughness debuff (Exitwounds), init debuff (increas crit), sort of a decent armor debuff has engage from stealth. STAKE, unique abilities stoping an enemy from getting rezed very big on killing key target. S TIER .
Damage: Isnt the most bursty class, BaL can do massiv damage but isnt my fav finisher, its readable by the enemy squad, neeed a long time before droping the big damage (building your accusations + 9 sec dots before final big tic). more of a constant damage in the squad. A TIER
Weakness: low mobility and fragile ( can spec into full parry and full disrupt). Punt and snare him and this will reduce the pressure.
General : Like ASW this class in 6mens is a true teamplayer bringing great and unique utility, been abble to double healdebuff a target and STAKE A++ TIER

Wrath Warrior Priest :
Hard CC's: Silence ... kinda of a jk to have only 1 hard cc that isnt a lockdown on a target C TIER
Utility: Incoming heal debuff, init debuff, damage aura. Great support healing with lifetap for ST heal, or party heal, dispel, and rez. Can slot utility moral for assisting heal and help prevent massiv drop of damage from the enemy, can bring Wounds buff if no heal WP. Overall good utility, sort of unique with it been heavy focus around the heal (but you kind of have healers for that ...) A TIER
Damage: If on the target with a team helping him can drop good damage, with a good execute, a decent self buff. A++ TIER[/b]
Weakness: Mobility, no charge, no gap closer, no hard lockdown on target. Can struggle sticking to the target. Need a team build around him.
General: the class has clear weekness and just far less tools than any other Mdps A TIER.
Side note: To the people sayin "Don't play Wrath, roll a true dps class". If the spec exist you should be abble to play it .

Conclusion:
I think that every class can be played and find succes in 6 mens, so they are all VIABLE, but they are not all competitiv.
It is clear that One class is way above any other class in the regard of 6 mens Mdps squad and that is WL. They bring to many unique things and are getting balanced around not having an incoming healdebuff and a squishy/buggy pet.
If you wanna build your squad you can lock 1 dps slot for WL regardless of the rest of the team ...

Changes:
WL: Sorry buddy's but you guys need a nerf and to give some of your lovely tools to the other class in order, or just not been the only one bringing certain things ...
CC's: Completly remove Fetch from WL and give it to an other class (BOMB DROPPED). This will open up ST pull in WB for order since it wont be tied to a pet anymore, and might bring an other class into order WB ...
Utility: WL cant be the only Mdps with an on demand armor debuff, making every comp without a WL needing a IB ...
Damage: Reduce some numbers ...

ASW:
Buff: remove the parry aspect of the backflip. And give a speed boost after the Shadowstep, with lags and **** using it to see yourself 15feet away when landing is kinda terrible ... Don't need much more, already an A++ tier class in what they do great overall just a bit of love regarding a clear weakness.

WH:
Buff: CC's and utility are great, damage can feel underwelming, adjust some numbers. Like ASW already a very good class, very geared dependant... maybe some love to PvE gear so a WH can do some decent work before been full BiS would be great for our friends with the best lookings hats !

2hSL:
Buff: Rework the spec tree, the Wounds debuff is nice if no KOTBS but get outshined by the KOTBS one ... and a DoT in a very bursty style of play is kinda meeeh (good damage but, once again just damage ...). The channel from left tree is unused and could be nice to see it in the middle tree (1st ability with req of having a 2h). Eather way give them a gap closer with a requirement of 2h or the fetch from WL has second abilities. Having a usefull tactic from the midtree could be great aw ... (increase crit damage +25% like chopa base race one ?).

WWP:
Give them a charge and a KD with req of having a 2h equip (like breakfree). Remove the buff that gives you -5sec and 25% armor pen, give them the same armor debuff than WL.
Removing that buff means 0 AOE capability in the current stat of the WWP, so some love need to be given to them in that regard. We could imagine a Hack and Slash (WL tactic) but for WP, a channel ability and change to the Smite (no CD if wielding a 2h).

That's it for me, thanks for reading
Vbax

[Sever1n]

WL: Sorry buddy's but you guys need a nerf and to give some of your lovely tools to the other class in order, or just not been the only one bringing certain things ...
CC's: Completly remove Fetch from WL and give it to an other class (BOMB DROPPED). This will open up ST pull in WB for order since it wont be tied to a pet anymore, and might bring an other class into order WB ...
Utility: WL cant be the only Mdps with an on demand armor debuff, making every comp without a WL needing a IB ...
Damage: Reduce some numbers ...

U miss few crucial things. Arp lvl and ap starvation. Lion have high burst and... thats all after his burst rotation hes completely ap starved and cant maintain pressure chocking with ap pots. With high lvl armored target they need only to counter your surprise burst. Armor debuff strong yes, but if you look into lions skills you will see that they dont have how to skyrocket their weaponskill high, or cant have big sources of arp from tactics. And armor of target means A LOT. Lions very strong against undeargeared squishies like sorks, sh, shams, but when it comes to figth with anything that have medium armor lion start to fall of and hard.
I dont like the vibes on lion targeting on forum based on "class works - nerf it". Lion didnt changed big for years and they where in balanced spot, pretty similar to mara, that have mirror pull and armorshred and even higher arp on skills what is very potent.. No CD pounce was toxic and lions didnt protest to nerf of it.

So no, your solutions is bad. Numbers of lion on lvl of mara, pull is mirror to mara and it need solution to work in wb play not migration. And the armorshred situation. Every tank in this game have resist shred based on main type dmg he deals. Bg, bork, ib, armorshred, sm and chosen spirit debuff, but for some reason kotbs if focused to deal phys dmg but have only resist shred from aura like chosen. So instead of telling how lions armor debuff superior (but it mirrored), give armor shred to kotbs as he deserve. On paper lion looks very shiny, but when it comes to endgame 6vs6 its not that simple at all. Its better to buff underperforming classes than ruin working ones.

[Zxul]

Armor debuff strong yes, but if you look into lions skills you will see that they dont have how to skyrocket their weaponskill high, or cant have big sources of arp from tactics.

Hack and Slash tactic- 25% more arp on main aoe skills.

Bg, bork, ib, armorshred, sm and chosen spirit debuff, but for some reason kotbs if focused to deal phys dmg but have only resist shred from aura like chosen.

They do however get Runefang, which adds a lot of ws= arp. While bg which deals only physical dmg doesn't gets a ws buffs/tactics.

[Sever1n]

Hack and Slash tactic- 25% more arp on main aoe

They do however get Runefang, which adds a lot of ws= arp. While bg which deals only physical dmg doesn't gets a ws buffs/tactics.

Key word there is AOE. ST lion dont benefit much from it. And aoe lion will simply will not work without it.

Kotbs mirror is chosen, not bg. Chosen dont even need to think about WS, as SM. But other 2h tank need to think about maxing WS, and only kotbs dont have armorshred. While other tank can provide regular+morale ruining defence of target in instant.

[Zxul]

Key word there is AOE. ST lion dont benefit much from it. And aoe lion will simply will not work without it.

And yet they have big source of arp from tactic, unlike what you posted. Not to mention that wl aoe build with Loner and procs can be used not just in wb scale.

Kotbs mirror is chosen, not bg. Chosen dont even need to think about WS, as SM. But other 2h tank need to think about maxing WS, and only kotbs dont have armorshred. While other tank can provide regular+morale ruining defence of target in instant.

And yet despite "Kotbs mirror is chosen, not bg", in your OP you for some reason specifically posted "Bg, bork, ib, armorshred, sm and chosen", and not just chosen.

Specifically about kotb- he can provide the same moral armor debuff as other tanks, chosen which as you mentioned is his mirror can't provide ability armor debuff as well, kotb as I said can buff his own ws with Runefang providing arp which acts as armor debuff for himself. Thats while being able to do nonphysical dmg in addition to physical (Blazing Blade dot, dmg aura), while bg which can do only physical dmg doesn't gets any ws self buffs at all.

[Vibax]

@Severi,
You'r right about the AP situation been a downside for WL, yet you can have AP pump and AP reducing cost from other members of the party mitigating that issue. it's like sayin well WL arent the best class for ST Mdps on order cause they don't bring incoming heal debuff. Yes the class isnt completly broken and still benefit from having team mates.
But the class brings so much (more than any other class when you look at CC utility and damage). When comparing it to other class from the faction you understand that it brings so much. When thinking of best team comp the first dps slot on paper that you can write down is WL just due to what it brings and been almost self suffisant ...
For the arpen point, it comes down to the tactic(s) slot(s) I was talking about forcing WL to slot 1 or 2 tactics, therefor loosing on other good tactics that could allow WL to go for other talis for exemple. You can still slot some WS talis on your gear ...
And if you remove some tools and see the class underperform you can still buff it after by reducing the cost of some abilities ...
Remember I main order, I play WL, yet I still think the class is very strong and by far the best one on order when it comes down to Mdps.
I said it other class need buffs and its the only one I would recommand to see some slight nerf on damage numbers and remove 1 CC since it has so much of it and some other dont have any (WWP) or very lil (2hSL).
Pull on other class would help diversify order WB's aw and end the question of balancing the pet tankyness, or simply give a marapull to loner WL ...

[Vibax]

2 replys and the topic already deviating to tanks talk, thanks guys.
And when I said to not bring blob aka AOE build the topic deviating in it aw, I should have count how many times I said : single target or ST in this long post ....
The topic here isnt about balancing tanks, and compare them faction to faction. The direction of the balancing team is to do the balancing role by role, feel free to creat a post about the diff between tanks

[Ashoris]

I cant really follow the conclusion. The WL in 6 man at a certain level plays with 3 tactics.
not to mention everything else like buggy pet and pathing ....

aSW defense only depending on armor (with that high amount of armor pen in the current game ... ) and mentioning the ranged snare but not the lack of a melee snare ... while totally ignoring the fact that you have to switch stances for it and are vulnerable in that case (aka not usable).

[Vibax]

I cant really follow the conclusion. The WL in 6 man at a certain level plays with 3 tactics.
not to mention everything else like buggy pet and pathing ....

So yeah you are repeting what I said about the tactics and the buggy pet, yet WL out perform every other ST Mdps order has.

aSW defense only depending on armor (with that high amount of armor pen in the current game ... ) and mentioning the ranged snare but not the lack of a melee snare ... while totally ignoring the fact that you have to switch stances for it and are vulnerable in that case (aka not usable).

You gain Armor, to become equivalent to WL and SL, you get more armor than WH. You also get 10% extra parry like DW other class, and an extra +15% defense on Shadowstep. Your not the squishyest Mdps. Range snare is better than melee one, cause everytanks have a better version of your snare, and the other Mdps have one. Also if a squad is on top of a target it is a waste of GCD for the dps to use snare, your tank should do it.
Stance dance is the CORE part of SW in anyspec, and this is why ASW is versatile and can still pressure when getting outrange where other dps just try to catch up ...

If your a WL main, please let me know what class outshines you. I get it nobody wants his class to be nerfed even the slightyest, but when a class out perform and has so much more tools than the others maybe a change need to be made ?

[Sever1n]

And yet they have big source of arp from tactic, unlike what you posted.

For 2 aoe skills, dont try to twist my words. If u see lion as spin to win 2button presser, than i dunno really what to discuss.
If u cant see dif between 2h chosen that auto reduse resistance and have spamable sprit st dmg and channel and compare it to to dot elemental staking of knight than again, i dont undestand in what world you live. Knight is the phys dmg dealer and only tank without armor shred for it, compared to bg and bork.
I feel destro vibes on forum against lions, so start your complains with comparing their dmg and maras. Only then start usnig words "OP", "Nerf". From what i saw they equal.