[PTS] - Delay the change of which stat grants parry% (WS --> INI) until the DPS rework phase

[Panel]

Thanks for such a detailed post. So if i read this correctly the WS change is a minor nerf for destro mdps because of being mainly DW but Mara in particular who has no option to go 2H and its a buff for order who are mostly 2H when its melee vs melee? Gotta hand it to the balance team - they have never been afraid to make decisions that alienate people and force them away from the game.

[Lisutaris]

Thanks for such a detailed post. So if i read this correctly the WS change is a minor nerf for destro mdps because of being mainly DW but Mara in particular who has no option to go 2H and its a buff for order who are mostly 2H when its melee vs melee? Gotta hand it to the balance team - they have never been afraid to make decisions that alienate people and force them away from the game.

Yes pretty much. And with the strikethrough tools on order, it will be a lil bit "unbalanced" regarding leftover parry on classes.
And that heals could theoretically invest in parry now to have a chance to parry

I think most people are not happy with this patch content because it looks like a 5min effort plan to make initiative useful. No real explainations regarding the planned changes (why, intent, and so on). And the timing (roadmap, ringevent) is super bad to drop such a bomb.
It looks more like a "here, have 5min. Then I want an idea to make ini useful. And while you are on it nerf mdps with that. kkthxbye."

Giving iniative a reason to exist would be nice tho. Much room to be creative tbh.

[Panel]

So to go a step further- destro mdps will take more damage and therefore destro tanks will take more guard damage both of which stressing destro healers?

[Sinisterror]

Iniative made More impressive Stat is great and 5% Crit redu 100 is nice but Ini should reduce Critical dmg by -15% Crit dmg max + 15% Crit dmg max or something close like that,If 100Ini or under you get max benefits. 450 Ini for -15% Crit dmg taken. Also this general Anti-Crit in RoR is bad idea, its the only universal thing in a game of no full mirrors. And No one wants mirrors. And without any modifiers its 35-55% Crit dmg increase on normal crit. Btw if anyone knows does 50% Crit dmg tactic increase that its 85-105% Crit dmg increase or 35-105% ? Also getting 45% Critical Reduction from Same amount of Renown you get 30% Crit. It should be other way around. Trivial blows is better way for everyones fun but it requires the old Crit Amounts + Crit dmg procs back as well.

Also Bw/Sorc Crit dmg nerfing is not a good thing, the average crit that is missing is like 15% and some classes also got things like old Frenzied Mayhem Giving 15% extra Crit. Double ws buff with black orc and generally strong skills that are smoothed over to uselesness. Generally if all the fun is dependant on everyone dying, alot and skills like engi/magus pulling 4 people from keep/fort walls is super fun, and just deal with the dying its not a big deal. You should be annoyed and figure out way to deal with WL poyncing to keep wallls instead of removing Wl's Ability to Pounce in Mid-Air or to higher grounds is obviously not the right move.

I could say this About very many things, Like Crippling Strikes,Dok Ae HD or Runefang old Core and people think that was OP. Nope it was mandatory in 2H to get any dmg or Armour Pene,Parry + Ini. It was there because Knight didnt have other ways to get benefits out of stats. Core lvl 39 Destroy Confidence Literally doing 4x Shatter dmg for 1 hit if 3 removed, and all could crit so over 3k dmg taunt up: D + having 65 ft range, that is OP. There is a Difference. Extremes are needed more not taken out. Vigilance Not usable with 2h... Mighty Soul Removal and neither were op.

Oppression 2h removal was also much bigger deal imo than most think. That was the Go to 2h move, get Kd+Oppression and survive. Daemonclaw is annoingly better version of Kotbs Runefang. This is the Result of Nerfing Iconic things they get mirrored somehow to otherside when they really shouldnt

[leftayparxoun]

Thanks for such a detailed post. So if i read this correctly the WS change is a minor nerf for destro mdps because of being mainly DW but Mara in particular who has no option to go 2H and its a buff for order who are mostly 2H when its melee vs melee? Gotta hand it to the balance team - they have never been afraid to make decisions that alienate people and force them away from the game.

So to go a step further- destro mdps will take more damage and therefore destro tanks will take more guard damage both of which stressing destro healers?

Hey there. Not exactly. Let me put it as simply as I can.
The difference lies is that Destro has mostly dw mdps classes (+10% parry base bonus) while Order has mostly 2h mdps classes (+10% parry strikethrough bonus) or dw classes with added strikethrough in their kit (Slayer, Witch Hunter).

When they are facing each other nothing changes with the new calculations:
A (common AOE bis) dw mdps can reach at best 45% parry and 14% parry strikethrough and a 2h mdps can reach at best 35% parry and 24% parry strikethrough (without any other tactics/abilities at play). You can notice how this soft mirror is supposed to be balanced, because when a dw mdps is hitting a 2h mdps and vise-versa with those stats, both will end up having 21% effective parry% (45-24 and 35-14).

The problem comes in the number itself; 21% effective parry is too low for having invested as much in it (20 renown points in parry and 450 INI total). That is because usually in orvr you don't face just enemy mdps, but the whole enemy faction which has tools to drop your effective parry even further (Bg, Kotbs -10% parry AOE skills, Pierce Defences for -10% parry from SHs, SWs, Engis). In an average big fight I'd expect that each mdps in the frontline will be affected from at least 1 of these debuffs --> effective parry% goes from 21% down to 11%. With the current system, most mdps classes could reach at least 12%-23% more parry than that, making it a worthwhile defensive investment despite all the strikethrough/debuffs.

Will mdps keep investing in parry for orvr if the change goes live? I don't think so, only select few classes will (WE, WH, Slayer maybe). 11% effective parry at best instead of 0% is too low to justify spending so many resources on it. So what this means is that if neither dw nor 2h classes will invest in parry anymore, the weapon base bonuses are no longer of equal value:

• Dual wield mdps (majority of Destro) get 10% base parry that isn't worth raising making their effective parry% 0 regardless, while

• 2-handed mdps (majority of Order) get 10% base strikethrough that may be useless vs enemy mdps that don't stack parry, but helps them deal with enemy tanks (and healers that could consider stacking parry)

conversely

• Tanks hitting Dual wield mdps will hit a lot more frequently compared to before (if dw classes don't build parry due to the above reasoning), while

• Tanks hitting 2-handed mdps will hit at the same rate/a bit more frequently than before (those classes usually didn't build parry before)

So if i read this correctly the WS change is a minor nerf for destro mdps because of being mainly DW but Mara in particular who has no option to go 2H and its a buff for order who are mostly 2H when its melee vs melee?

Mdps vs mdps will still be balanced. Mdps vs other stuff would be where differences show up.

In the end it's not that big of a deal. Order having more strikethrough has always been a thing, so no real changes there. And Destro mdps getting more damage from tanks comparatively isn't a major issue (due to tank damage being just a small fraction of the damage coming in from enemy mdps). Parry% potentially becoming an obsolete stat for mdps is the bigger issue at hand, making the dual wield base bonus a lot worse in comparison to the 2h bonus.

If anything, I'd say that overall the combined Initiative changes (parry% and chance to be crit) would be more of a buff to Destro, due to their available AOE INI debuff options compared to Order (Mara's Wave of Mutilation vs AM puddle).

[Farrul]

The WS->INI stat change makes no balance sense at all, it shouldn't be delayed, it should be 100% discarded. It is just in general a very bad change for the game.

The only way to really justify this change is if you look at stats in a vacuum, not considering how it will impact individual classes and class roles and dynamic in combat.

Sure on paper it might ''seem'' like this makes some logical sense, initiative seems quite weak and WS is super important to physical damage carrers and offers indeed quite good returns for investment.

However, what the RoR team fail to realize is the fact that ''Physial carrers'' in this game has an inherent HUGE disadvantage compared to every none - physial(Magical) carrer: They need to build TWO different stats to scale their damage.

Magic carrers only need to build mainstat to scale damage. This imbalance is very obvious on many levels hence WS was never an issue.

WS granting parry was indeed a small compensation for this inherent imbalance in how physical vs magical damage scaling is flawed in warhammer online.

Then, those that typically build high levels of WS are melee carrers or hybrid melee carrers , this now is a big nerf to their survivability amongst themselves, and indirectly a buff to every ranged carrer in the game. (Except magic melee classes like 'Chosen'', go figure )

Playing melee in this game is already such a burden outside of organized prime time( when players are available to fill roles of guard , healing etc ) and the rest of the time it is infested with dps shamans griefing the playerbase, all kinds of dps ranged carrers making everyone not ranged or super organized miserable.

Hence this change will only add more grief and insult to a situation wich has already turned bad, unfortunately this might just be the change that makes a lot of players take a break or quit for other games, there are no other words to describe this than, ''Bad''. This forces melee into playing shield tanks or more 2H chosens, maybe that was the intention?

A nerf to WS should imho follow with some long overdue adequate nerfs to magical ranged carrers, i.e no disrupt strikethrough from intelligence , disrupt from renown is useless because of this unless stacked upon shield wall or Wall of darting steel. Resistance value on gear increased or the stat itself re-scaled to be more effective at mitigating magical attacks.

[Zxul]

and the rest of the time it is infested with dps shamans griefing the playerbase, all kinds of dps ranged carrers making everyone not ranged or super organized miserable.

Do you need a safe space?

A nerf to WS should imho follow with some long overdue adequate nerfs to magical ranged carrers, i.e no disrupt strikethrough from intelligence , disrupt from renown is useless because of this unless stacked upon shield wall or Wall of darting steel. Resistance value on gear increased or the stat itself re-scaled to be more effective at mitigating magical attacks.

It amuses me to no end how much you are complaining about strikethrough from intel making disrupt from renown useless (for a few classes actually, because unlike your claim it is very useful for any healer or tank, or just anyone effected by htl), while I haven't seen you once complain about str strikethrough making parry from renown useless for every caster. Or how every caster has realistically close to 0% mitigation vs a competent physical mdps. Bias much?

[akisnaakkeli]

Leftpayrx + 1. Also adding to that, Im going to show why Parry(Dodge,disrupt even Block) doesnt can be fully ignored.
RoR.builders - Shadow Warrior
RoR.builders - Archmage
RoR.builders - Sword Master

Lets assume these 3 have WL as well who is using 10% Strikethru tactic and 10% Parrystrikethru from 2h. Lets assume that Sw's Pierce Defences is up. Dps Am has 20% Strikethru 100% of the time for all Skills. Path of Asyr skills gets 35% Strikethru which is the majority of dps Am rotation. Can spam highest dps ability 15ft aoe and no cooldown with 40% Strikethru. Possible to get Blinding strike and up it to 50% With dazzling strikes(also that 10% is for all not just SM but only 5s uptime, needing perfect balance and there is actually no need for it even=)

Sm Has 18% Crit from SW tactic + debuff. Also 20% + 10% Crit from his own tactics and skills and that becomes 48% Crit without stats or gear. Sm also has 40%! Strikethru from Tactics,2h and Pierce Defences.

SW gets 20% Strikethru and 30% Crit from tactic + skill. WL as well gets 30% With tactic,Pierce Defense + 2h. Sounds like High Elfs can truely diminish your defenses and have super high crit lvls (only grp in the game left that gets to enjoy crit if they are speckd for it)

This truely sounds overwhelming to me. Maybe The Original Way to deal with dmg/skills/everything was more thought out of than people gave it credit or understood. At this point Reverting to 2013 Warhammer online Age Of Reckoning 1.4.8 is really the kill move? Meaning the right move, only move. Or Pick 1.3.4 patch, i wouldnt mind rank 36/rr40 and 3 tactics being max vs what we have atm

[Lisutaris]

Leftpayrx + 1. Also adding to that, Im going to show why Parry(Dodge,disrupt even Block) doesnt can be fully ignored.
RoR.builders - Shadow Warrior
RoR.builders - Archmage
RoR.builders - Sword Master

Lets assume these 3 have WL as well who is using 10% Strikethru tactic and 10% Parrystrikethru from 2h. Lets assume that Sw's Pierce Defences is up. Dps Am has 20% Strikethru 100% of the time for all Skills. Path of Asyr skills gets 35% Strikethru which is the majority of dps Am rotation. Can spam highest dps ability 15ft aoe and no cooldown with 40% Strikethru. Possible to get Blinding strike and up it to 50% With dazzling strikes(also that 10% is for all not just SM but only 5s uptime, needing perfect balance and there is actually no need for it even=)

Sm Has 18% Crit from SW tactic + debuff. Also 20% + 10% Crit from his own tactics and skills and that becomes 48% Crit without stats or gear. Sm also has 40%! Strikethru from Tactics,2h and Pierce Defences.

SW gets 20% Strikethru and 30% Crit from tactic + skill. WL as well gets 30% With tactic,Pierce Defense + 2h. Sounds like High Elfs can truely diminish your defenses and have super high crit lvls (only grp in the game left that gets to enjoy crit if they are speckd for it)

According to those numbers ~40%+ strikethrough ... parry can be discarded tbh (except you can maybe get to 60%+)
10% remaining parry sounds nice but wont do much to make you survive. 10% = 1/10 hits parried IF you are actually getting attacked from the front. So yeah. worst case would be all burst dmg hits you full in the face but you parry the enemy offhand autoattack swing... woho
With 100k HP or while being the big champ in city 10% parry keeps being nice <3 Which is sadly not reality.

If changes go live there will be more guard dmg for sure, as there will be less overall parry on mdps and 2h tanks. Not because of the changes itself but because players will not go ini but swap to str instead of ws or someting else. 2H Tanks who are full WS talis will not go full initiative, they want at least to tickle the enemy. Means overall less parry.
Many mdps will also go more futile strikes or trivial blows (doesnt matter if intelligent decision or not) and also have less mitigation/avoidance of dmg which will result in higher guard dmg. (on 2h Tanks)

Also keep in mind that the line "overall destro benefits more of the patch" is talking about WB vs WB not small scale or 1on1 fights. Expected to be in a good/perfect setup. (like having a sorc or mara there for the debuff > and really using it ... looking at sorc..)

What can be said for sure is the following: With current patchnotes, sorc/bw get reduced 100Nukemode crit multiplier, a dmg nerf. If melee dps wants to survive the additional incoming dmg they have to use something other to invest in this, or to compensate for lost parry. This will also result in less dmg overall. Tanks are being pretty much the same (tanky wise) and also heals get if anything more robust with same amount of healing. This is double important as your natural enemy on a mdps is a ranged dps class. You usually dont dodge or disrupt much. Thats why mdps is a very beloved target on a sorc/bw.
> If nothing else gets changed/added, it will be even more difficult to kill stuff, especially if going full defense mode is the new meta build which I hope will not happen.

[akisnaakkeli]

Hehe : D Its probably starting to make Sense why Warrior Priest using 2h was the only exception and had 10% parry strikethru with block as well. Well it was always obvious to us Dps Melee Healers because if Wp didnt have that with 2H what does he have? Dok was so much useful as a dps but the old aoe hd tactic for both would be best. I still loved My DD Wp and Guilty Soul healing from 3-4 Sources + Working Divine Assault/Rend soul.

And Fok/Judg uses 15 ap gives 15 resourses <3 And the Holy Grail Melee dps grp heal using 35Ap returning 35 Resources. This last one as a shield exclusive only.... and shield gets 3 Divine strike hits with 150% of the dmg healed so Shield gets the only Ap using and only grp melee heal in the game. And they get 2-3k Divine Strike aoe heals that dont need los... And they can Block...= ))) ) ) ))

Blocking with anyone except tanks is no no. Wh/We Charge is No No as well With dps Wp/Dok with Charge is a no no. Stealth and melee heals being the reason why. And with 9 cap if dps dok was still in his glory. 2 Dps Doks using obvi Snare+dmgheal covenant and 15% increase proc on them tactic for both. 1 Zealot Healer. Bruiser Black orc 1k THC crits with shield and 2h Chosen or Bg. This worked so nicely in Sc's and roaming. Sometimes having sorc or magus which meant 15% + dmg from all sources instead of second tank worked very well but it was a bit dangerous.