AoE morale damage targeting cap

[Wam]

the nerf to aoe damage.... favours the side with more players... morals will do same thing

now if you remove morale bomb... lesser numbered co-ordinated players have even less chance against more players and will break the game and make it even more zergy than it currently is

Bad idea imo... unless your on order and want to pve more keeps while destro have aao... or want to run around as four stacked warbands all the time

there is some skills/traits on both sides which are nice that the other don't get access too... you can't fixate on block morale and not others or balance goes out the window

[Collateral]

In our experience as a warband, no amount of dmg or morale can save you from the zerg, it's how the game is. Two warbands we could fight, but when you get flanked by another 1-2 it's gg, wheather you have morales or no. Nerfing morale, or removing the damage would give more organized groups to actually last longer imo. It would let you focus more on the tactics and positioning. When those other 2 warbands flank you, you won't last longer than those 10-15 seconds when the morales start hitting you again, and you used up all your pots, hels etc. on survivng the first two dumps.

[roadkillrobin]

Can you produce an example of what order has that is better, would be helpful to understand what you mean by that.

Yes, but the list would be very very long.

Well can you give me one example?

Couple of examples then,
Every Order mdps got a AA haste tactic and only DoK on destro got one.
Order got stackeble healing buffs that affects the entire group, Exalted Defence, Focused Mending, Blessing of Grungi. Destro only have the Blessing.
Order got stackble Crit buffs, Leading Shots, Ancestors Fury, Dirty Tricks. Destro have none. These also stacks with Intitive debuffs and other to be crit debuffs aswell.
Order got 2 ranged knockdown on ranged classes. Destro have no ranged knockdowns on ranged classes.
Order have melee classes that can propell themself towards the enemy. Destro have none.
Order have group Wounds buff, Destro have none.

In general, Order got better sustained dps trogh a better static skillset, while destro relies heavily on defensive morale cycles to sustain it's defence against it.

[th3gatekeeper]

Well can you give me one example?

Sure.

Healing WP > Healing DOK. There is one example.

Where is the example, you just listed two classes, i'm just asking for one clear example of what makes order stronger than destruction to justify why destro have so much more morale pumps.

Really?

Exalted Defenses...

[footpatrol2]

if anything order should have stronger morales simply just compensate but i would not even propose that as an option.

Order currently does have stronger morale 2's then destro does. Order has better morale 4's then destro also.
Please note that better is a relative term.

If your nerfing the damage output of morale 2's you can conduct then your nerfing Order.

The best situation is to remove the morale scalers implemented by RoR and restore the correct morale gain rates of 36 m/sec for a full group.

Note: that this is still not even the full morale gain rate that could have been achieved on the retail servers. You could gain 60 morale per sec with the use of 3 guild banners and the correct full group morale gain rates. I wrote a detailed article located here on this.

old morale gain rates (mechanics)
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20633

Please note, how dirty dirty SLOW the morale gain rate actually IS on this server.

10 m/sec in almost all situations.

About morale gain tactic's (example)

Spoiler:

The tactic morale pumps only seem powerful due to its relative comparison to the base morale gain rates. If you increase the base morale gain rates to its correct value then those tactic morale pumps will not seem as powerful relatively.

If your driving a car and traveling 10 mph and get a increase in speed of 66.66 mph from a morale pump tactic say (chosen's) for a total of 76.66 thats a 760% relative increase to what your used to seeing.

If your driving a car and traveling 35 mph and get a increase in speed of 66.66 mph from a morale pump tacitc say (chosen's) for a total of 102.66 thats a 280% relative increase to what your used to seeing.

If you super care about morale gain rates and trying to optimally build for them you could take 3 guild banners.
if your driving a car and traveling 60 mph and get a increase in speed of 66.66 mph from a morale pump tactic say (chosen's) for a total of 126.66 thats a 210% relative increase to what your used to seeing.

If the correct morale gain rates are implemented then they will have less of a impact relatively.

[xanderous]

Yes, but the list would be very very long.

Well can you give me one example?

Couple of examples then,
Every Order mdps got a AA haste tactic and only DoK on destro got one.
Order got stackeble healing buffs that affects the entire group, Exalted Defence, Focused Mending, Blessing of Grungi. Destro only have the Blessing.
Order got stackble Crit buffs, Leading Shots, Ancestors Fury, Dirty Tricks. Destro have none. These also stacks with Intitive debuffs and other to be crit debuffs aswell.
Order got 2 ranged knockdown on ranged classes. Destro have no ranged knockdowns on ranged classes.
Order have melee classes that can propell themself towards the enemy. Destro have none.
Order have group Wounds buff, Destro have none.

In general, Order got better sustained dps trogh a better static skillset, while destro relies heavily on defensive morale cycles to sustain it's defence against it.

So more auto attacks, a few healing buffs and some stackable crits, not even going to address the WL pounce as it already had its cooldown increased despite the fact it almost bugs every time, what about those wounds, seem to always loose quite a bit when i go near destro, whats that about, So all of those things are what you justify as means to generate faster undependable attacks and buffs that make all those abilities useless and can wreck entire wb's in a few seconds, i will grant order have some neat tricks but come on we are talking Morales here, they are in category of their own.

[footpatrol2]

Can you produce an example of what order has that is better, would be helpful to understand what you mean by that.

Here is one of the fastest morale bombs that can be produced at one time in this game and it comes from Order not destro. The group composition is not extremely exotic either so it was viable. its a 3/2/1 setup.

HE Morale 2 Push
viewtopic.php?f=76&t=20641

Look and understand the above group composition.
Understand the sheer amount of coordination this group would take to pull off.
Zerg players cannot pull off that group composition.
It requires too much organization/coordination too pull off for zerg players.
If your not in comms you can't pull that group comp off.
If your not assisting on the same target as a group you can't pull that comp off.

We can have these group compositions come back with the correct morale gain rates and the re-implementation of banners.

You'll make group comp decisions not purely based on the ap damage output but also the morale bomb components that they can bring. You have to balance the two instead of just focusing on ap damage output. Understand that this allow's spec's that are deemed un-viable to be viable due to their morale bomb components they can bring or morale gain support.

This game was a lot more dynamic at one time.

[th3gatekeeper]

Well can you give me one example?

Couple of examples then,
Every Order mdps got a AA haste tactic and only DoK on destro got one.
Order got stackeble healing buffs that affects the entire group, Exalted Defence, Focused Mending, Blessing of Grungi. Destro only have the Blessing.
Order got stackble Crit buffs, Leading Shots, Ancestors Fury, Dirty Tricks. Destro have none. These also stacks with Intitive debuffs and other to be crit debuffs aswell.
Order got 2 ranged knockdown on ranged classes. Destro have no ranged knockdowns on ranged classes.
Order have melee classes that can propell themself towards the enemy. Destro have none.
Order have group Wounds buff, Destro have none.

In general, Order got better sustained dps trogh a better static skillset, while destro relies heavily on defensive morale cycles to sustain it's defence against it.

So more auto attacks, a few healing buffs and some stackable crits, not even going to address the WL pounce as it already had its cooldown increased despite the fact it almost bugs every time, what about those wounds, seem to always loose quite a bit when i go near destro, whats that about, So all of those things are what you justify as means to generate faster undependable attacks and buffs that make all those abilities useless and can wreck entire wb's in a few seconds, i will grant order have some neat tricks but come on we are talking Morales here, they are in category of their own.

.... not sure what just happened.... You went from seemng to be curious and open minded, to throwing out completely every bit of "evidence" and arriving at your already pre-determined opinion..

The entire point of all this was to talk about how nerfing morale gain was the wrong path, but nerfing morale abilities is the right path... Which then lead to you asking "why is order better" which we provided, where you basically ran back to "well were talking about morales" so were back at the beginning again? Im confused.

This is why I said, rather than argue about specifics. its better to look at it as a whole where people "generally agree its balanced as is" however destru have better morales (m4s) which leads to morale pumps being big in warbands. The nerf to morale gain was a nerf to Destru (mainly). Without morale pumps, order classess generally outperform destru counter parts.

But overall, I think the consensus here is to unnerf morale gain rate. Just target specific nerfs on specific morales.


So why dont we all lay out WHICH morales specifically need to be nerfed (both DEstru and order) and work towards a goal here rather than sling mud at eachother.

[xanderous]

Can you produce an example of what order has that is better, would be helpful to understand what you mean by that.

Here is one of the fastest morale bombs that can be produced at one time in this game and it comes from Order not destro. The group composition is not extremely exotic either so it was viable. its a 3/2/1 setup.

HE Morale 2 Push
viewtopic.php?f=76&t=20641

Look and understand the above group composition.
Understand the sheer amount of coordination this group would take to pull off.
Zerg players cannot pull off that group composition.
It requires too much organization/coordination too pull off for zerg players.
If your not in comms you can't pull that group comp off.
If your not assisting on the same target as a group you can't pull that comp off.

We can have these group compositions come back with the correct morale gain rates and the re-implementation of banners.

You'll make group comp decisions not purely based on the ap damage output but also the morale bomb components that they can bring. You have to balance the two instead of just focusing on ap damage output. Understand that this allow's spec's that are deemed un-viable to be viable due to their morale bomb components they can bring.

You do understand AM's don't generate fast morales thanks to the scaling working as intended on that set up, no matter what way you swing that awe, order can't compete with destro morale generation.

[footpatrol2]

Yes xanderous and I think that is a mistake and should have not been implemented on this server.

Order can easily compete but this game has been seriously hacked up by mythic/some by RoR and a lot of the tools have been gutted out. Most of the stuff I write about is about this gutting and trying to get rollbacks to get back to the balance point. Patch 1.4 and beyond is when this game took a drastically different design direction. I personally think patch 1.3 should be the balance point and adjust from there.

If your super worried on morale bombs allow alter fate base archtype morale 4 that all healers get allowed to be taken as a morale 1 AND as a morale 4. Don't nerf the morale damage. Nerfing the morale damage seriously screws with the overall balance.