Balance Discussion Forum v3

[notre]

Hi, I try to not mention any class in particular...

- Start balacing Destro healing ...if this post still really open.

"Order Blessing of Grungi + Magical Infusion from RP and AM stack additively.
Destro Blessing of Chaos + Shrug it off from Zealot and Shaman don't stack at all."

https://github.com/WarEmu/WarBugs/issues/9284
Last comment was Jun 6, 2018.

- RvR. Capturing o defending a BO still mean nothing. Having or not the Bo's during siege mean nothing. And removing the tick part on the BO's only has triggered the zerg mode. During the time a zone is opened holding the BO's has to mean something for the realm wich is holding it.

- The other issue i see with the overall game is the range, "5 ft aren't 5ft"...also melees have an awesome swiss army "anti-kite" toolset, with 65 ft habilities, a lot of "charges", silence, root, staggers, knockdows. "Everyone can do almost everything" philosophy wich kills the real meta of each class.


Have fun

[wargrimnir]

Just throwing in my $0.02 as well.

I'm hopeful about the chances BDF can bring about, the current balance forums seems to overlooked most of the time. I'm sure the proposals are read, but it's hard to know as a player whether or not these proposals are even acknowledged and considered. I recognize it's a ton of a work to consider each and every single post, but just a simple acknowledgement is good enough for me. I have read through plenty of proposals, even for classes I don't play, and many of them, I believe, are well written and not asking for drastic changes, but it appears many of them are left in the dust. I'm sure there are discussions in the background, but I guess I just want to stress more transparent communication and acknowledgement, not necessarily acceptance.

Regarding general balance, it's fair to not always balance top down, and middle upwards is fair, but I would like to know what is the intended meta that you guys are hoping to transition towards? You mention balancing towards a more average player, I just hope that what you consider the average player isn't the player that plays a few hours a week and is utterly frustrated by everything seemingly "OP" because they don't have the time to learn about different classes, tactics, and counters.

I'm not a big fan of the in-game polls, sure it reaches a broader player base, but how much of that player base is actually informed enough to provide solid feedback and opinions? For the players that didn't care, they could do something as simple as checking down all the boxes randomly and moving on with their lives. Is it important to have a general straw poll? Sure, but there has to be a good compromise between utilizing key feed back from forums and the in-game poll.

We're not going full derp with public feedback, that's what you seem to be asking. However we can acknowledge more common/less informed complaints/requests and find ways to address them without cutting the knees off a class as well or buffing them to godly states. I believe small changes can add up

[uanaka]

Just throwing in my $0.02 as well.

I'm hopeful about the chances BDF can bring about, the current balance forums seems to overlooked most of the time. I'm sure the proposals are read, but it's hard to know as a player whether or not these proposals are even acknowledged and considered. I recognize it's a ton of a work to consider each and every single post, but just a simple acknowledgement is good enough for me. I have read through plenty of proposals, even for classes I don't play, and many of them, I believe, are well written and not asking for drastic changes, but it appears many of them are left in the dust. I'm sure there are discussions in the background, but I guess I just want to stress more transparent communication and acknowledgement, not necessarily acceptance.

Regarding general balance, it's fair to not always balance top down, and middle upwards is fair, but I would like to know what is the intended meta that you guys are hoping to transition towards? You mention balancing towards a more average player, I just hope that what you consider the average player isn't the player that plays a few hours a week and is utterly frustrated by everything seemingly "OP" because they don't have the time to learn about different classes, tactics, and counters.

I'm not a big fan of the in-game polls, sure it reaches a broader player base, but how much of that player base is actually informed enough to provide solid feedback and opinions? For the players that didn't care, they could do something as simple as checking down all the boxes randomly and moving on with their lives. Is it important to have a general straw poll? Sure, but there has to be a good compromise between utilizing key feed back from forums and the in-game poll.

We're not going full derp with public feedback, that's what you seem to be asking. However we can acknowledge more common/less informed complaints/requests and find ways to address them without cutting the knees off a class as well or buffing them to godly states. I believe small changes can add up

Not my intention to go full derp, just asking for a reasonable balance between public feedback (especially when it's thoughtful and constructed feedback, not the knee-jerk expletives) and the in-game poll. I interpreted your OP comment that the guard forum post discussions was too one-sided and you sided with the in-game poll, since it FELT like it probably fit your agenda better.

I think there are plenty of proposals in the current balance forum that are small changes, of course it's hard to know until they're actually tried out though.

[scatterthewinds]

@wargrimnir

I think this is the wrong action. People not in the top ~10 players on the server (skill and knowledge) wise shouldn't even have their posts read. Do not cater to casuals or warband players. Trust the people who know the game or else watch everything descend more into a shitshow than it already is.

[Ysaran]

@wargrimnir

I think this is the wrong action. People not in the top ~10 players on the server (skill and knowledge) wise shouldn't even have their posts read. Do not cater to casuals or warband players. Trust the people who know the game or else watch everything descend more into a shitshow than it already is.

If I may ask: who are the top 10 player on RoR?

[peterthepan3]

@wargrimnir

I think this is the wrong action. People not in the top ~10 players on the server (skill and knowledge) wise shouldn't even have their posts read. Do not cater to casuals or warband players. Trust the people who know the game or else watch everything descend more into a shitshow than it already is.

If I may ask: who are the top 10 player on RoR?

The 10 players with the highest RR, obviously.

[Reesh]

@wargrimnir

I think this is the wrong action. People not in the top ~10 players on the server (skill and knowledge) wise shouldn't even have their posts read. Do not cater to casuals or warband players. Trust the people who know the game or else watch everything descend more into a shitshow than it already is.

If I may ask: who are the top 10 player on RoR?

The 10 players with the highest RR, obviously.

[Sesquap]

@wargrimnir

I think this is the wrong action. People not in the top ~10 players on the server (skill and knowledge) wise shouldn't even have their posts read. Do not cater to casuals or warband players. Trust the people who know the game or else watch everything descend more into a shitshow than it already is.

If I may ask: who are the top 10 player on RoR?

Small scale:
- Famil-smth
- Legion of Boom/Twelve Inches Unbuffed/Altera-smth
- LotLR/Old School
- Fusion/Praedonius
- Elitist Prickz
- Montague
- the remnants of Phalanx/Zerg
- various individuals spread throughout plenty of guilds, excelling in different formats

Large Scale:
- TUP
- remnants of Phalanx/Zerg and DnD

Notice a pattern? The 'stale' meta is a result of the fact that less than 5% of the playerbase engage in proper play, you have the same 30ish individuals playing each other (or in terms of large scale on their own, as competition died with Phalanx), while the rest of the playerbase could be counted towards the NPC population.
You'll obviously see the same comps ran by the same people - why would they reroll other classes and abandon their mains just to entertain you.

Edit:
Imo, all future changes - bar trivial QoL ones - should meet one major criteria:
They should only be able to be utilized within a group (starting with a duo); DR/gating based on the size and coordination of your group - e.g.: buffs that affect everyone BUT the individual using them.

Besides that I'd suggest to not wrap more of archetype/class x's toolkit into archetype/class y's, just because pugs don't bother to unlock 95% of their archetype's/class's potential that is stashed away in the form of another archetype's/class's toolkit, by asking a simple question:

'Hey mate, wanna group up?'

[Acidic]

Well no surprise a post just introducing a new format for balancing provides lots of crying and complaints even a fresh suspending, really have to respect wargrim stepping into this infected space with current role and real life. Anyway from me I give him my respect and thx for the effort.

[Luth]

introducing a new format for balancing

I can't see anything new on this format.