Casual friendliness, the atmosphere of WAR, solo play

[Vandoles]

I hope that OP is prepared to face the thing when there will be only pugs: Sides are unbalanced and there only one counterplay for it - teamplay. You will never get it from pugs. So be prepared to get ****ed by sorc-bw,magus-engi,we-wh when your tank and healer are 100ft away or just don't give a **** about you and that you need help from them. Welcome to original pug WAR

Who says there will be only pugs? My ideas are incredibly minor and would, at most, lead to a cessation of the complete disappearing of pugs.

You're paiting a very dire picture of some hypothetical situation that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, which is simply not killing off casual play completely.

[peterthepan3]

But you said it yourself, most people queue all. If that were the case and that would mean little change for pugs, wouldn't it then have little change for premades and their queues?

And you're saying if one premade is queueing and no premade is queueing on the other side, there will be no scenario pop. Shouldn't that be right though? Unless there's people willing to face premades or other premades, the premade will end up in a steamroll with several people forced to afk at the spawn point. The premade itself won't have that much fun either.

But again, we're getting diverted from the general topic, that is considering some minor 1v1/small scale changes to make the game a tad more casual friendly and more fun for everyone.

i'll refrain from diverting from your original point any more after this point

people shouldn't have to suffer simply because they're in a group. i'm all for prem vs prem-only scenarios: it's what our guild/alliance is interested in, but people tend to duck/not queue CW a great deal. this means we are forced to queue for other scenarios - not because we want to pug stomp, but we actually want to have some PvP. if these other scenarios, too, start to pop slowly - because more maps are in circulation for ungrouped players - then premades will slowly begin to lose interest in scenarios altogether. i empathise with your sentiment, and would love to see several premade-only scenarios; but organising prem v prem fights is hard enough as it is (I have tried, and failed, to organise events targetted at prem v prems), and there are premades out there who aren't really interested in fighting against even odds (unfortunately).

It's also worth mentioning that having more than one prem v prem scenario could give off the wrong signal, i.e. that the game revolves around 6v6. 12V12 is the typical size for scenarios, and should remain that way.

to your original point: shaman is supposed to be a strong class 1v1 because it combines mobility, damage and survivability perfectly. that will always be the case with dps healers in any game. balance should not revolve around 1v1, because in a group setting the shaman's presence/power is felt significantly less (stronger healer classes and dps classes than the shaman)

[Vandoles]

i'll refrain from diverting from your original point any more after this point

people shouldn't have to suffer simply because they're in a group. i'm all for prem vs prem-only scenarios: it's what our guild/alliance is interested in, but people tend to duck/not queue CW a great deal. this means we are forced to queue for other scenarios. if these other scenarios, too, start to pop slowly - because more maps are in circulation for ungrouped players - then premades will slowly begin to lose interest in scenarios as it is. organising prem v prem fights is hard enough as it is (I have tried, and failed, to organise events targetted at prem v prems) .

to your original point: shaman is supposed to be a strong class 1v1 because it combines mobility, damage and survivability perfectly. that will always be the case with dps healers in any game. balance should not revolve around 1v1, because in a group setting the shaman's presence/power is felt significantly less (stronger healer classes and dps classes than the shaman)

I am not that aware how slow queues for premades are. But if there are no players, there are no players, right? I still don't think adding an additional pug scenario or two will affect you a great deal, as most people will still queue all and those who queued for the one will just now queue for several, but anyway. That's something we need the feedback of multiple people to judge.

To my original point - you hit the nail on the head. A shaman's presence is felt significantly less in a group, while he is absolutely, incredibly dominant in 1v1. And you say all dps healers in any game - i disagree. I'm fine with the balance of doks in War. They're killable, kiteable, vulnerable in some ways. Of course, a single dps dok can often hold his own against 3 people, but they are still vulnerable. And most importantly, they do not have the range to completely dominate the lakes by ganking whoever they see.

Meanwhile, with this collosal power in 1v1s, they suffer in groups. So this begs the question - why not slightly lower their 1v1 power, to the point where shamans are not THE quintessential rvr lake 1v1 ganker (also satisfying all you people who want MORE group play, since then there will be less soloing shammies), while improving their group utility?

[peterthepan3]

There are a lot of changes in the works at the moment targetting these very issues, i.e. shaman/AM's role in a group, giving them more variety in their choice of play - whilst being an asset to a group. The most recent changes in particular may be of interest to you.

[Vandoles]

There are a lot of changes in the works at the moment targetting these very issues, i.e. shaman/AM's role in a group, giving them more variety in their choice of play - whilst being an asset to a group. The most recent changes in particular may be of interest to you.

I read the discussion on the most recent changes. The problem is, it's forbidden to talk about 1v1 balance. So we can talk about shamans getting more group utility, but it will not come at the price of them not being THE ultimate 1v1 ganker who completely dominates lakes.

There's a r33 shaman in t1 who reached r33 only through ganking for gods sake, that should ring some bells.

The point in me making this post here was that I think the rule on never considering the 1v1 balance should be put to the side to consider the absolute overpoweredness a shaman has in that and possibly the fact that squigs do not perform as they should, being too strong in certain situations and weak in others - something that also requires some 1v1/small scale rebalancing.

[peterthepan3]

But what would you go about nerfing to achieve this? The shaman's mobility? Then it would become an easy target in group play; the 'damage'? The damage doesn't really account for much in a group environment; the survivability? Then they would be even easier to one-shot than they already are.

Nerfing the class in a setting that has no bearing on the main PvP style could have drastic effects on said class in a group setting, where the combination of these traits (survival, mobility, damage, healing) actually give it somewhat of a role.

[kweedko]

I read the discussion on the most recent changes. The problem is, it's forbidden to talk about 1v1 balance. So we can talk about shamans getting more group utility, but it will not come at the price of them not being THE ultimate 1v1 ganker who completely dominates lakes.

There's a r33 shaman in t1 who reached r33 only through ganking for gods sake, that should ring some bells.

The point in me making this post here was that I think the rule on never considering the 1v1 balance should be put to the side to consider the absolute overpoweredness a shaman has in that and possibly the fact that squigs do not perform as they should, being too strong in certain situations and weak in others - something that also requires some 1v1/small scale rebalancing.

Bwahahhaa do you ever been dps shaman in t4 mate, where you die in 2 gcd from lion or wh or engi killing you form 140+ foots in 5 secs that you can't even react? And even in t1-t3 tanks just go away from you to safe zone, any kind of heal and detaunt make your damage nonsence, shaman ultimate 1v1 ganker bwahhhahaha when you killing your target in dosens of seconds or even a minuts it's not the ultimate gank it's just overliving your oponent.

[Ghostweed]

^This

"Ultimate ganker" is pretty strong term for DPS shammy. U have to pick ur fights - easy kills are SWs, Slayers, WPs (nomnomnom), SMs, IBs and BWs. Engagement with any other class leads to tie (Kotbs, RPs, AMs) or to ur swift death by Mr.Lion or WH or u get sniped.

[Vandoles]

So what I'm hearing is that shaman has major issues and yet ridiculous powers in dominating those "easy" classes as you said - anything but healers and possibly a WL or WH if he has much more gear.

So you basically agree with my reasoning in balancing shammies out by reducing their powers against those "Easy" classes to the point where the "easy" class has a CHANCE, while buffing them in situations where they have major issues?

[Vandoles]

But what would you go about nerfing to achieve this? The shaman's mobility? Then it would become an easy target in group play; the 'damage'? The damage doesn't really account for much in a group environment; the survivability? Then they would be even easier to one-shot than they already are.

Nerfing the class in a setting that has no bearing on the main PvP style could have drastic effects on said class in a group setting, where the combination of these traits (survival, mobility, damage, healing) actually give it somewhat of a role.

I completely disagree, I think nerfing the class in that setting will set it on the right course in a group setting.

Quite simply put, you cannot improve a shaman's damage, because then he has too much mobility and utility. You cannot buff his ability to kill healers, because then he will be able to do everything. You cannot buff a shaman's healing because then he does the other things just as well.

You cannot balance a shaman because they already dominate several classes completely and anything additional will throw them hugely off-balance.

So, approach that. Balance the shaman's abilities that allow it to destroy any melee dps (possibly except WL) and then buff it where it has a problem, i.e. healers and white lions.

I'm more arguing about the approach here, not the actual meat of the matter.