[SH] Ranged knock down has to go

[zulnam]

Right, lets throw a glancing look at what is twisting our underwear today and compare it to other similar spells

Not So Fast! - 3s KD - 1s cast (castable while moving) - 20s CD - 65 feet - 20 AP - adds DoT - 5 point ability
Vengeful - 3s KD - 1s cast - 20s CD (10s if Vengeful) - 100 feet - 20 AP - INI debuff - 5 point ability
Stop, Drop And Roll - 3s KD - instant - 20s CD - 100 feet - 20 AP - class mechanics (extra dmg), 13 point ability


Now we're all big brain individuals here, as suggested by the eons of discussions on balance, so i will leave it at this. I'm sure people can extrapolate the information in an objective manner and not solely based only on their experience of playing a multiplayer game by themselves.

Can you imagine. Making balance decisions for a team oriented game cause of people losing 1v1 fights? WE/WHs would have one button who's tooltip would say "Logout".

[Brutinho]

Right, lets throw a glancing look at what is twisting our underwear today and compare it to other similar spells

Not So Fast! - 3s KD - 1s cast (castable while moving) - 20s CD - 65 feet - 20 AP - adds DoT - 5 point ability
Vengeful - 3s KD - 1s cast - 20s CD (10s if Vengeful) - 100 feet - 20 AP - INI debuff - 5 point ability
Stop, Drop And Roll - 3s KD - instant - 20s CD - 100 feet - 20 AP - class mechanics (extra dmg), 13 point ability


Now we're all big brain individuals here, as suggested by the eons of discussions on balance, so i will leave it at this. I'm sure people can extrapolate the information in an objective manner and not solely based only on their experience of playing a multiplayer game by themselves.

Can you imagine. Making balance decisions for a team oriented game cause of people losing 1v1 fights? WE/WHs would have one button who's tooltip would say "Logout".

Well said.
Just FYI, Not so fast! doesn't add a DoT :b

[teiloh]

Right, lets throw a glancing look at what is twisting our underwear today and compare it to other similar spells

Not So Fast! - 3s KD - 1s cast (castable while moving) - 20s CD - 65 feet - 20 AP - adds DoT - 5 point ability
Vengeful - 3s KD - 1s cast - 20s CD (10s if Vengeful) - 100 feet - 20 AP - INI debuff - 5 point ability
Stop, Drop And Roll - 3s KD - instant - 20s CD - 100 feet - 20 AP - class mechanics (extra dmg), 13 point ability

The SH has 3 Knockdowns in three forms. It has more CC than the SW and WL combined. Destro really does not need any abilities that synergize so well with its pulls.

[Sundowner]

Right, lets throw a glancing look at what is twisting our underwear today and compare it to other similar spells

Not So Fast! - 3s KD - 1s cast (castable while moving) - 20s CD - 65 feet - 20 AP - adds DoT - 5 point ability
Vengeful - 3s KD - 1s cast - 20s CD (10s if Vengeful) - 100 feet - 20 AP - INI debuff - 5 point ability
Stop, Drop And Roll - 3s KD - instant - 20s CD - 100 feet - 20 AP - class mechanics (extra dmg), 13 point ability


Now we're all big brain individuals here, as suggested by the eons of discussions on balance, so i will leave it at this. I'm sure people can extrapolate the information in an objective manner and not solely based only on their experience of playing a multiplayer game by themselves.

Can you imagine. Making balance decisions for a team oriented game cause of people losing 1v1 fights? WE/WHs would have one button who's tooltip would say "Logout".

well, when discussing abilities comparing abilities of classes with different mechanics/other tools available is not a good approach. Classes don't become overtuned by having access to 1 ability that other classes have too, overtuned means having good synergy and variety of tools that can be used together. Hence saying BW/SW has it without taking into account differences between these classes is not a valid approach to balance.

Team oriented game does not mean 1v1 balance should not be taken into account at all and there have been changes which mostly affected 1v1 balance in the game. It is prioritized less than 6v6, 24v24 or largscale balance, but is considered nonetheless, because certain classes being OP in 1v1 is not healthy for the server.

[balvor877]

Right, lets throw a glancing look at what is twisting our underwear today and compare it to other similar spells

Not So Fast! - 3s KD - 1s cast (castable while moving) - 20s CD - 65 feet - 20 AP - adds DoT - 5 point ability
Vengeful - 3s KD - 1s cast - 20s CD (10s if Vengeful) - 100 feet - 20 AP - INI debuff - 5 point ability
Stop, Drop And Roll - 3s KD - instant - 20s CD - 100 feet - 20 AP - class mechanics (extra dmg), 13 point ability


Now we're all big brain individuals here, as suggested by the eons of discussions on balance, so i will leave it at this. I'm sure people can extrapolate the information in an objective manner and not solely based only on their experience of playing a multiplayer game by themselves.

Can you imagine. Making balance decisions for a team oriented game cause of people losing 1v1 fights? WE/WHs would have one button who's tooltip would say "Logout".

For certain classes the mirroring is fine, for others not. Like BW and Sorc or WP and Dok are really close to each other. SW and SH or Mara and WL are very different. You cant just mirror stuff from SW to SH and let the SH keep all their tools. SH is the best example that this is a terrible idea - especially when the SW abilities have stance requirements and the SH not. Another example is the WL. They nerfed his damage and mobility to bring it down to Mara damage but now the WL damage and mobility is gone and the Mara does pretty good damage too and could keep all his stuff. His stances and extras and the pull and the aoe knock down... all incredible tools the WL dont have.

So much for big brain...

[wachlarz]

Right, lets throw a glancing look at what is twisting our underwear today and compare it to other similar spells

Not So Fast! - 3s KD - 1s cast (castable while moving) - 20s CD - 65 feet - 20 AP - adds DoT - 5 point ability
Vengeful - 3s KD - 1s cast - 20s CD (10s if Vengeful) - 100 feet - 20 AP - INI debuff - 5 point ability
Stop, Drop And Roll - 3s KD - instant - 20s CD - 100 feet - 20 AP - class mechanics (extra dmg), 13 point ability


Now we're all big brain individuals here, as suggested by the eons of discussions on balance, so i will leave it at this. I'm sure people can extrapolate the information in an objective manner and not solely based only on their experience of playing a multiplayer game by themselves.

Can you imagine. Making balance decisions for a team oriented game cause of people losing 1v1 fights? WE/WHs would have one button who's tooltip would say "Logout".

For certain classes the mirroring is fine, for others not. Like BW and Sorc or WP and Dok are really close to each other. SW and SH or Mara and WL are very different. You cant just mirror stuff from SW to SH and let the SH keep all their tools. SH is the best example that this is a terrible idea - especially when the SW abilities have stance requirements and the SH not. Another example is the WL. They nerfed his damage and mobility to bring it down to Mara damage but now the WL damage and mobility is gone and the Mara does pretty good damage too and could keep all his stuff. His stances and extras and the pull and the aoe knock down... all incredible tools the WL dont have.

So much for big brain...

WL dont have stance. Sava/ brut req stance dance to play full potencial.

[Sundowner]

Right, lets throw a glancing look at what is twisting our underwear today and compare it to other similar spells

Not So Fast! - 3s KD - 1s cast (castable while moving) - 20s CD - 65 feet - 20 AP - adds DoT - 5 point ability
Vengeful - 3s KD - 1s cast - 20s CD (10s if Vengeful) - 100 feet - 20 AP - INI debuff - 5 point ability
Stop, Drop And Roll - 3s KD - instant - 20s CD - 100 feet - 20 AP - class mechanics (extra dmg), 13 point ability


Now we're all big brain individuals here, as suggested by the eons of discussions on balance, so i will leave it at this. I'm sure people can extrapolate the information in an objective manner and not solely based only on their experience of playing a multiplayer game by themselves.

Can you imagine. Making balance decisions for a team oriented game cause of people losing 1v1 fights? WE/WHs would have one button who's tooltip would say "Logout".

For certain classes the mirroring is fine, for others not. Like BW and Sorc or WP and Dok are really close to each other. SW and SH or Mara and WL are very different. You cant just mirror stuff from SW to SH and let the SH keep all their tools. SH is the best example that this is a terrible idea - especially when the SW abilities have stance requirements and the SH not. Another example is the WL. They nerfed his damage and mobility to bring it down to Mara damage but now the WL damage and mobility is gone and the Mara does pretty good damage too and could keep all his stuff. His stances and extras and the pull and the aoe knock down... all incredible tools the WL dont have.

So much for big brain...

WL dont have stance. Sava/ brut req stance dance to play full potencial.

and WL needs pet which is bugged/dies pretty easily to play full potential. In addition WL and mara are very different classes with different role, one excels (or exceled in mobility), other excels in cc/survival, comparing them like WL has x, mara has y, therefore they are balanced is a waste of time. Classes should be more unique, not less. mirroring classes or nerfing them without considering synergies between skills and class identity kills fun

[Miaso]

The focus shouldn't necessarily be on the ranged knockdown, it is the fact the SH has a huge list of tools at their disposal, and the Dev's decided to give them one more! its insane. In my view BW doesn't need and shouldn't have ranged knockdown and nor should SH, but if SH is going to keep theirs in the name of "balance" then it needs some other utility removed or its overall damage reduced by about 20% in the name of "balance" considering it has about 3 classes worth of of cc and tools on its own.

[zulnam]

Right, lets throw a glancing look at what is twisting our underwear today and compare it to other similar spells

Not So Fast! - 3s KD - 1s cast (castable while moving) - 20s CD - 65 feet - 20 AP - adds DoT - 5 point ability
Vengeful - 3s KD - 1s cast - 20s CD (10s if Vengeful) - 100 feet - 20 AP - INI debuff - 5 point ability
Stop, Drop And Roll - 3s KD - instant - 20s CD - 100 feet - 20 AP - class mechanics (extra dmg), 13 point ability

The SH has 3 Knockdowns in three forms. It has more CC than the SW and WL combined. Destro really does not need any abilities that synergize so well with its pulls.

Nope. The SH has 2 knockdowns. Pet KD was removed in the patch that reworked the range specs. Just as many as SW; more than WL with 1 (although if we count gap makers/closers/desnares it's a tie again).

But even then, it matters little since after any KD you get a 30 second buff that makes you immune, as we all know. And if you survive 30 seconds with a SH and still don't manage to kill it, maybe the problem doesn't lie with balance.

well, when discussing abilities comparing abilities of classes with different mechanics/other tools available is not a good approach. Classes don't become overtuned by having access to 1 ability that other classes have too, overtuned means having good synergy and variety of tools that can be used together. Hence saying BW/SW has it without taking into account differences between these classes is not a valid approach to balance.

There are 24 classes in this game, 72 specs. I don't look at classes mirroring classes, i look at abilities mirroring others across the two factions. This is a team game. The whole idea is for the teams as a whole to be somewhat balanced, either with mirrors or similar abilities. SH has a range knockdown not because SW has it, but because someone on destro side had to have it. It's the only one, Sorc doesn't have one. From a gameplay design it makes sense to me. Asking for it to be removed is not "avoiding mirroring abilities", it's blatant favouritism.

And I main Order.

[Sundowner]

well, when discussing abilities comparing abilities of classes with different mechanics/other tools available is not a good approach. Classes don't become overtuned by having access to 1 ability that other classes have too, overtuned means having good synergy and variety of tools that can be used together. Hence saying BW/SW has it without taking into account differences between these classes is not a valid approach to balance.

There are 24 classes in this game, 72 specs. I don't look at classes mirroring classes, i look at abilities mirroring others across the two factions. This is a team game. The whole idea is for the teams as a whole to be somewhat balanced, either with mirrors or similar abilities. SH has a range knockdown not because SW has it, but because someone on destro side had to have it. It's the only one, Sorc doesn't have one. From a gameplay design it makes sense to me. Asking for it to be removed is not "avoiding mirroring abilities", it's blatant favouritism.

And I main Order.

So we should mirror aoe kd, GTDC, rampage and other unique abilities factions have? Then order needs second cd decreaser, etc. Favouritism is giving SH range KD, while not mirroring other abilities to make game balanced, if we follow your logic.

and I don't really take account what faction people play, it's easy to see biased opinions. Yours is not, but according to it we should make more mirroring, if I correctly understand what uoi mean by what you said.

I don't say we should remove sh ranged kd, I don't play that class much and don't really know it's synergies, sure they feel a bit overtuned which should be looked at (even devs do it, as secrets said, if I remember), I mainly critiqued your argument of solely comparing abilities without considering context of classes, their mobility and their tools. Because if BW has ranged kd and SH has ranged kd, they don't have the same effect on gameplay. since you can kite BW more easily, while SH is fast, more mobile. Synergy between class's abilities defines realm balance, not only abilities.