¨Join Solo¨ and ¨Join Group¨

[Vigfuss]

I think player skill can be balanced out in the ORVR. If you need a bigger group to contribute, join the zerg, eventually numbers will win. What we need right now is better/more ORVR.

With the 3 SC brackets we have now players can just play the low brackets if they want to avoid competition.

[grumcajs]

Grumcajs, the reason some people are against separate queues is NOT because we want to farm pugs and bads all day. It is because our waiting times would increase by a lot.

So instead, we are giving some suggestions on how to quickly form a premade, so there is actually BETTER competition in SCs. "Casual" players won't get stomped all the time and "elite" premades will get better fights. Everybody wins.

Grulo, Im not asking for premade only, pug only queue.

On several occassions I have tried to provide something that would "make it better for pugs" while still keeping 1 queue for all :

1)queue as grp lockout for 2 mins or so after sc end so it would give a room for pugs to have their headless instanced pvp.
2)give lockout to premade that would move them to lower priority list for queue after sc end. so the 6 spots for sc arent taken right from the start
3)once grp join sc, give higher priority to enemy grp and fill the other 6 spots with "pugs" (solo, duo) - I think that might sounds better cuz it wouldnt cripple you joining as grp and would give u chance to fight enemy grp with equal number or pugs on both sides

About these suggestions how to quickly form a premade:
- have you posted something about - lvl to atleast 18 first
- equip some solid gear + talis
- forget about dps if u are healer or tank

All I have read was just talking how simple it is to form a premade on your own - just ask on advice as example
You all have forgot to list these 3 things I have mentioned.
It might seems simple. I have no problem to get to grp when I have asked lvl 20 s/b chosen lfg (though I had only green items from vendor). Also I have seen how our grp leader was yelling at pugs something like - we need lvl 20 choppa, not lvl 17 choppa... etc.

[Tklees]

Grumcajs, the reason some people are against separate queues is NOT because we want to farm pugs and bads all day. It is because our waiting times would increase by a lot.

So instead, we are giving some suggestions on how to quickly form a premade, so there is actually BETTER competition in SCs. "Casual" players won't get stomped all the time and "elite" premades will get better fights. Everybody wins.

Grulo, Im not asking for premade only, pug only queue.

On several occassions I have tried to provide something that would "make it better for pugs" while still keeping 1 queue for all :

1)queue as grp lockout for 2 mins or so after sc end so it would give a room for pugs to have their headless instanced pvp.
2)give lockout to premade that would move them to lower priority list for queue after sc end. so the 6 spots for sc arent taken right from the start
3)once grp join sc, give higher priority to enemy grp and fill the other 6 spots with "pugs" (solo, duo) - I think that might sounds better cuz it wouldnt cripple you joining as grp and would give u chance to fight enemy grp with equal number or pugs on both sides

About these suggestions how to quickly form a premade:
- have you posted something about - lvl to atleast 18 first
- equip some solid gear + talis
- forget about dps if u are healer or tank

All I have read was just talking how simple it is to form a premade on your own - just ask on advice as example
You all have forgot to list these 3 things I have mentioned.
It might seems simple. I have no problem to get to grp when I have asked lvl 20 s/b chosen lfg (though I had only green items from vendor). Also I have seen how our grp leader was yelling at pugs something like - we need lvl 20 choppa, not lvl 17 choppa... etc.

So since we que as a group we should wait longer for scs because others do not? Warhammer was always about group play. It's why we have tanks with guard and dps with group buffs and healers that have group and aoe heals. Why should people who play as a group be penalized for doig what the game is made for?

And yes the choppa should go level to 20. It's the first step of any mmo. Get to max lvl.

I retain my stance that it is not hard for even a casual player to join a guild or form a group. And those that do not care about group play and are only there to do their own thing are not valued members of the community IMO. They are a spot in an sc that could have been filled by another casual who would actually play as a team.

[Elenol]

its not about telling you you play the game wrong, you can play whatever you want. but THEN dont come to this forum and demand changes (or not changes) or whine about premades and you always losing.

I maybe made a mistake trying to write an intelligent post past midnight when I already struggle with communicating sometimes! I've only barely reached T2 so I don't have much to speak on this issue myself. I was just more trying to address *how* some people were communicating. Even if folks make good points, they sometimes do it in such a way that it has a chance to drive off part of the playerbase. I'm new here so I can't really speak very possessively on this project, but it seems a shame to shame people into maybe leaving when they're just writing suggestions. And that's the best spin on what's going on here sometimes I think.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I've had a blast through T1. Group queue has been fun and hasn't felt overly punishing when things aren't going well. But that's just T1.

[Elenol]

Here is a summary of the better comments in my opinion if folks want a quick recap. This thread was getting a bit long and there is some troll-y posts that new folks might just want to bypass. I added my own comments directly largely at how to not be a troll IMHO:

Spoiler:

That's something I also thought about a lot.
I'd say the "premade vs random stomp" in scenarios was one of main reasons for lots of ppl leaving the original war.
Premade vs random is for neither side really fun. Always loved playing premade vs premade instead of farming randoms.

Spoiler:

Playerbase is not huge enough to get any kind of split without having to pay with long waiting times.

Spoiler:

As was made abundantly clear before. We are testing the group que. We are all testing it and we are expected to give our feedback in a style that will give the developers something to work with in honing the experience to one that meets the needs of the many with what tools are available.

And I am all for that. I say test and test some more. I encourage the feedback to be plentiful and detailed. What was the ratio? What was the action like? Did you meet a premade? Have you met lots of different ones or the same few over and over? How long were the matches? What was the score? How did you feel about the experience? If it went bad, when did it seem certain?

There are probably other questions that can reveal details useful to the devs in the crafting of the que system but make no mistake ladies and gents, it is your accurate and detailed feedback that determines just how long the que system stays broken and to what degree it becomes anything you might enjoy.

[I'm not sure if this sort of thing will actually make a difference but it's a fine thought at least that isn't attacking anyone]

Spoiler:

@OP

+1, its unfair and it made me leave the Live. At the end, our guild was only doing 6 man premades, 7th/8th guy logged in -> "hey, u got unlucky, no room for u in SC group -> tryied to join solo -:> aaand its 2 premades vs. 1 premade + pug -> lost, waste of time -> ok, quit the game and lets play something more pug friendly -> canceled my sub, never came back...

(actually going through the same problems even now - u get in 1st SC party or u are destined to go rouge as there never was a 2nd SC party)

[This person is only speaking of how he felt about his own experiences. He might not be on the 'right' side, but it's hard to say he's wrong for feeling that way as he's playing.]

Spoiler:

We roll premades because we can, cause its fun, and yea, because its the most efficient way to play. Dont expect Destro, or anyone, to go solo just because you cant get organized.

[This was a fairly polite (and in my mind, accurate) counterpoint opinion to the OP]

Spoiler:

I'm not good enough, or really interested in running with an organized group. I don't pay attention to called targets, my healing is moderate at best and takes a lot of focus on not hitting my damage buttons. I don't care about farming for awesome gear or grinding the AH for hundreds of gold. BiS is a like some unicorn that doesn't exist. Seems like I'm never near my team and I run head first into the other team to die instantly. When I am near my team, I'm the reason we're not winning a fight and it's clear to see for everyone else but myself.

I don't care much for the opinions of other people, and killing is fun. Whether it's on a dps shammy, or a dps chosen, or an assault stance sw, or whatever other awful dps spec is out there that's not the most efficient. Maybe I want to see how crazy high damage numbers I can get with my slayer and I just run headfirst into a team spamming aoe. It's stupid, but sometimes it works and it's fun.

You know what all of that doesn't work with? Premades.

Tell me, oh ye pathetic pugs, is it not painfully obvious when you enter a scenario where a premade is going to pubstomp you so hard you just afk at spawn for a couple minutes? After the first engagement, the battle is over and who is really trying? I experience this rather often. Better to drop out of queue until the premade gets its fill of pug blood. Either that or lose and feed their ego, match after match, by margins of 400 points or more.

I can't stand playing after a couple matches like that, when it's clear one premade can just wreck the morale of an entire faction into not queueing at all. Feels bad, man. Maybe it's just the US hours that I play on, where most of the EU crowd has started to slip off the servers, but when one side starts losing badly, scenarios stop, or it's a bloodbath. That's only good for one side.

tldr; group q is cancer, solo q 4 lyfe + quitter debuff

[Note: he's not saying he wants his solo queue to beat premades. He's just saying the way he likes to play, he doesn't want to be a part of that premade culture. It's important to distinguish between those two points, because people later start comparing apples and oranges.]

Spoiler:

No.....

I like to solo que and fight agianst premades. Just because you got a premade running, doesnt mean you will win vs pugs. All pugs arent bad

[A rare solo queuer speaks up who wants to keep the current system. Notice it's him just voicing his opinion and not slamming people for their opinions even when they run counter to his. Also this is about what I feel so far.]

Spoiler:

1. Complaining about group play in a MMO is a bit weird.
2. Complaining about the most effective way to play classes or how to setup a group in a PvP game is a bit weird.
3. Complaining about better players in a PVP game is a bit weird.

I recommend to play a single player game. Instant action, you can play what ever you like and the only enemy is the AI.

[I think this misses the point of some of the original points, but I'm putting it in here because the guy was helpful and fairly polite. But in my mind, people play MMOs for all kinds of reasons and people socialize on MMOs in all kinds of different ways. It's also weird for me to tell someone else that they're socializing in an MMO wrong. There are lots of different ways of socializing in MMOs. Some people like to just have people around and talk when they feel like it... and then not otherwise. As for intentionally not playing well or complaining about better players, I think the original argument is again tangent to that. They don't want the good players to be worse. They want the organized players to play with the organized players. They want the disorganized players to still try to play smart and well... with other lazy, quiet, 'loner' players. It's not about wanting to be bad and bring down the ceiling. When I play basketball, sometimes I play pretty competitive with all my friends on a team. We don't trust strangers to ruin our chemistry. Oftentimes I just want a lazy, fun pickup game where I'm still trying my best. But it's not the same kind of trying my best.]

Spoiler:

Reading all the comments here I wanted to state that, all premade you will find in an sc are hardly optimised. There's a lot of premade running that are just people that enjoy playing together, be it optimised or not, most will favor what their mates wants to play, and not what they need to "WIN AND STOMP PUGS COZ THEY BAAAD, WE GOOD, FEED US". There are most certainly a few who thinks like that off course and those are a cancer for such a small community.

While fighting against pugs, rest assured that a good lot of them don't take much fun in stomping a pug only sc. A premade may run and win, but a premade wants to have fun too, and that come through fighting mostly. So, no fighting, no fun. You won some emblems, whoooo, big deal ....

And don't assume either that every "premade" are good. There are pugs who are better than most premade, and that happens more often than not.

And why separate people who party from people who solo ? I solo too, off course it's frustrating when you just loose again and again and again against the same premade. But would it be fair for everyone ? Is there any sort or competition, rating, or something ? No.
So why ? Because you loose ? Come one this is a pvp game, you will loose, and win, and loose, and win. This is no news in any single game. I read someone saying that "it was separated in every game". The answer is no, it isn't, you go with 2 of your friends, decide to go pvp, and tag up on an pvp battleground with em, end of it. That's a "premade" too guys. And sometimes they are 5, or 6 of them, and this, is not separated from solo players. Since there's no competition, there's no separation that is mandatory. You don't do, or win, or loose, anything, you just play.

Last, this is a pvp game, we are here to pvp, if some wants to play alone, then don't complain too because others want to play with friend, or party with good players. It would be like being angry because your egg fell and broke after you let it fell in the first place ....

[This is almost addressing the original point... but not quite in my mind. But the point about premades wanting fun is a good point. People aren't saying to remove people playing together entirely. They're just trying to suggest ways for premades to get the challenge they apparently crave from high level play on both sides while allowing casuals and lazy bums to avoid getting rolled.][/spoiler]

[Elenol]

More good comments based on my own opinion:

Spoiler:

pug is not a synonym for BAD!

Spoiler:

I always ran scenarios with friends back when the game was live. I do the same here. Usually between 3-6 of us. I do agree though that premades run other people off. This server after all of the devs hard work will end up a ghost town.

Spoiler:

with so low playerbase its sometimes really pain. especially when u queue up solo and get a lot of low lvls in your team vs. 12 lvl 20s (mostly premade or atleast 3-5 tanks, 3 healers and rest dps). I love playing tons of alts so I have tried to join the scs as lvl 14 or so only to get hate from my team.

Do not know how bolster mechanic is working atm but when I was lvl 14 with green lvl 12-14 items I was underperforming so hard compared to when I was lvl 18 with mostly lvl 14-lvl 18 gear I understood its really better to avoid any scenarios till 18 atleast.

Limited playerbase = higher chance u end up facing the same premade over and over again (for like 6 times in row I was facing the same order players). Same as few hours back when I logged I have seen same order low lvl pug being spawn camped by the same destro premade.

Grp vs. grp only and pug vs. pug only is nice idea. Though we might talk about it when we have like 100 players atleast in every realeased tier online at all times. Maybe even more. Same as 2/2/2 requirements. Nice idea but it would lead to horrible wait times.

When u get stomped its ok. Its the risk while queuing as solo player. Facing same enemy players over and over again seems a bit .... broken. Maybe give some "lockout" on scs so your grp is unable to join scs for 2-5 mins or have some lower priority at that time leading to some pug bashing till you can afk spawn camp again. No idea

Spoiler:

What I've seen in game is this attitude I've presented about queueing for scenarios. A lot of people solo queue, generally disorganized, playing whatever class they feel in whatever spec they feel. The goal is to kill players to get loot and renown, without having to hunt down a fight in RvR or deal with a massive zerg. Ideally, both teams are made of reasonably skilled players and they both get a nice even share of the loot and RP.

Premades existed before the group queue, but they were broken and not everyone got into the same scenario, which spread out the power spikes to a manageable level. Pugs could compete with two or three organized, well geared, level 20 players in the mix, with all other players rather random in power. This problem was magnified significantly when the group queue was established, outside of the other bugs with it. The problem was not that the scenario queue system was broken, but rather that players were breaking it. Premades would queue up at the same time, get different scenario pops, and drop the queue. This leaves massive holes in the queueing system and unbalances it in one direction or another. (The alternate story was that soloq players were checking to see what players got into a scenario, and were dropping it because they were scared. lolwut.)

Adding a 6-man premade with gear does the same thing in an equally bad direction as having these holes. One team is ~50% coordinated with a balanced group, the other might be, or they just might be a collection of pugs who are about to get stomped. Group queue didn't fix the problem, it rewarded the players who were breaking the queueing system by giving them a feature they demanded. Now that you have your group queue in place, scenarios will continue to be a roll of the dice for anyone who doesn't organize and build their own group. To continue this path on the current trajectory, you might as well disable solo q and require at least a 3-man group to play.

Spoiler:

You got it all wrong.

If people want to chill playing for a couple hours without organizing something serious then they should do oRvR. Join a WB and leech renown. Capture some BOs. Maybe even capture a keep. Hell, if you are really lucky you might even get a deathblow on someone.

SCs on the other hand are 12v12 in a small map and therefore, the more coordinated team will win pretty much all the time.

[It's an opinion stated like a fact but it's a good enough point that I put it in here.]

Spoiler:

yes this. actually in rvr noone even cares if you do your own thing.

Spoiler:

Cool story.

I'm not concerned with the "win", it's about competition. What you've detailed is the path that a hardcore player would take. That's great, some people enjoy working at a game for hours and it fulfills them in that way. Yes, groups will win battles when they're coordinated, it's really obvious. The insinuation, and literal translation of the state of the game, is that if you've worked hard for your end-game gear, and you play with an organized group, you deserve _are entitled_ to crushing pugs because you're better now. If you're so concerned about it being an end-game raid, why are you advocating the casual players must stick through being your punching bag? This is the same high-level problem that WAR had back in the day. If you hit R32 and wanted to PvP, you were screwed. The scaling difference from R32 to RR80 for gear is insane, then from RR80-100 was just as bad of a gap, yet still was inexplicably the same tier.

The problem is population density, and not being able to fill that high-level of competition. You need casual players to fill in the gaps, to have an arena where they can fight each other and grind up their skills and gear without being pubstomped on a regular basis. You can't get blue or purple gear unless you score a kill in the first place, even then you're rolling against 11 other people in the hopes it's for that 1 class out of 12. The odds are bad. Casuals are gonna be wearing greens for a long time.

I see you defending the side of those who have worked hard to hit RR30 and wear purple gear, but are you considering the general health of the game at the same time? WAR needed casual players, RoR does too. Every game needs casual players. WAR thought it was going to be hardcore enough back in the day to survive without casual players too, and it didn't, all the while charging us suckers 15$ a month with empty promises of future content to boot. They made a whole shitload of cash pets to sell us instead, which if they had been paying attention, might have mattered to a casual player if any were left. Before the group queue, scens were a place that casuals could jump in, play a couple matches, and kill an hour or two.

But hey, instead of arguing past each other, maybe find a different solution that's more acceptable. No point in tearing out group queue if it's actually working. If it can't be separated into solo/group, what else fixes the issue of driving your casual players out of the one aspect of the game that's made to drop in and play? Make R20 the entry point to the end-game queue, if there's a way to dump premades into that queue as well, even better. This is when you stop leveling, and the only progression left is gearing up, it makes sense to have it separated. This gives players leading up to R19 an arena where the vast majority of players are going to be at least in the same quality of gear and your premades will have that top tier to compete in like they're designed to do.

[A little sarcastic, but I feel overall well articulated and surprisingly polite.]

Spoiler:

If you want to deal with the problem, then you need to split the queues such that premades and skilled players are pushed towards a queue for more skilled players by both carrot and stick.

[I assume that means better rewards for the premade queue right? That's the impression I get judging from later comments. I like this suggestion. Group Queues are rewarded and Solo Queues get their casual experience.]

Spoiler:

How feasible would coding an MMR system be for group que once the server has enough population to justify it?

Spoiler:

Maybe have separate Group vs. Group and Pug vs. Pug SCs and give better rewards in Group vs. Group SCs?

- better drop rates from player kills (x2?)
- More emblems per win (5?)
- better renown/xp? (x2?)

This will result in:

a) Premades will queue exclusively for those SCs (group vs group)
b) Premades won't be hurt by lack of pops since their rewards will be better when they actually get SCs.
c) Casual players will be encouraged to make their own premades, since the rewards in Group vs. Group SCs will be better.
d) Those who still like to roll their heads on their keyboards will be able to solo Q and get their pity emblem for losing against other solo players

Everyone wins?

[Oh yeah comments such as this! Still a little caustic but it's a good idea. Very least it's a good rough draft idea.]

Spoiler:

The problem with splitting the queues by group and pug is that not all solo players are crap and not all groups are good.

This is why I think the best solution is to split the queues such that the rewards are proportional to the strength of opposition. It's still not ideal (because why should casual players be punished if they're not able to perform to a certain standard?) but it's better than them being crushed by the premade juggernaut.

Spoiler:

Most scenarios are 12-player. Why not enforce a maximum of 1 group per side per scenario. Then if you have two "elite" premades, then victory will be decided by the 6 puggies on each side
Regarding the ability to trick the server on solo queuing, you could maintain 2 queues at the same time and allocate people to each one or the other when they join. You could also make sure that people of the same guild joining in close timing proximity end-up in two different queues... or people that have recently been grouped together go to different queues... The trolling possibilities are endless

Spoiler:

With our current pop and number of premades, I only see a possibility for separate queue for premades in a 6v6 scenario. In other case they would have to wait for a long time to get a pop.
Also 2-3 people queueing together are not necessarily a factor, unlike groups of 4+ players.
I've seen many times full premades losing to a complete pug, so no wonder that they resort to double premade qing. Premade only queues will give them the competition that they're trying to avoid.

[Elenol]

Spoiler:

premades hate nothing more then having to play with a random group believe me


a relatively easy method could be:

make one scenario a "group scenario" you still can queue for it solo but get a solicit warning "this is a group scenario, you will face premade groups here. really queue?"

gruoup queue will automatically queue for that scenario.

could be a first test how it works out? if premades still queue the other scenarios or even not queue that specific one you will now that all is a lost cause at least ^^

Spoiler:

Unfortunately, I can see Penril's point.

If some players are determined to maliciously stomp weaker players, they're going to do that, regardless of the effect on the game. I find that such people don't tend to care about the long-term effects - they'll blame the developers of the game for not finding a solution to prevent their actions and move on to the next game.

Spoiler:

Not matter what you do for public MMR or skill brackets it will be flawed. You have to look no further than the popular mobas/FPS games atm.

Regardless it would be nice if there was some kind of "officially" sanctioned competitive environment so that those who want to play against the best they can, have that opportunity. Currently if a premade loses to another, the most common excuse is "Lol our pugs were **** XD" and a lot of the times they were not lying.

On top of this being a good opportunity to see how game balance holds up at high level play.

Spoiler:

As far as I'm concerned, 6v6 scs like Eternal Citadel should've been a form of endgame in the old WAR. Mythic wanted to keep it as much casual as possible, so they didn't allow the sc to be available all the time, even though that there were many groups around that insisted on the 6men composition.
Other scs that could be played in this format are Caledor Woods, Maw of Madness and Gates of Ekrund. There shouldn't even be some special mechanic to them, except holding a flag. Each sc brings a potential for different tactical approach (if you have rdps in group, you could queue for Caledor only, etc).
And as Jaycub said, perfect group combos would surface (like we don't know them already). It would be a perfect ground for acknowledging and fixing balancing issues. And if the tides turn to some other classes than the current most popular ones, people will go with it and it'll keep the game fresh.

And I wrote this as solo player, I would be one of the people that has to adapt to the group play.

Pug scs would still be pug scs. I don't think that anyone had issues with the randomness of it, only when that randomness gets broken by premades. And I love it when there's a premade on other side, makes the game more challenging. I wouldn't want to lose that, so yes, I'd have to group up.

Spoiler:

6v6 reikfactory would be really fun, there is so many paths and strats you could come up on that map compared to the other more straight forwards objective based maps.

Just think of all the different ways you could split up and head out to one of the 3 objectives.

An emphasis on strategy could also mean a moving away from boring melee trains, as maybe now classes that are valued for their 1v1 potential become a valuable assets for an example, or how well they can hold a point, or...

For instance maybe you want to pick up a SW and try to use him as a lurk/solo player to mess w/ whoever they send to their close point, maybe you have a full tank spec knight you have sit on mid while you storm the back objective w/ 4... etc...

And of course you would have your DM SC's like MT where a whole different type of meta would be present (which is basically what we have now).

Spoiler:

Most games find a way to cater to “their kind of player”. And there is nothing wrong with that. Some games reach out to wide swaths of diverse players and their styles and some games just focus on a narrow band of experiences leaving the rest to go their own way.

It does not seem like this venture has the reach to spread itself around to multiple tiers of players and their styles. This effort has to pick its player type and that's what we all get. I am not looking to demonize that, but facts seem to be facts.

So scenarios will simply favor premades. Period. No way around that. And maybe that seems like the natural order of things. All things in its place. If I were to lay it out like so...

Most Likely to win – Premades
Less likely to win – PuGs that works together
Least likely to win – PuGs that do not work together

It would seem like the most natural and organic thing around. Of course that is how it should go, yes?

But the slightly uglier side of that coin is that anyone who plays this game casually will simply be denied scenarios and whatever comes from them. They are not the right kind of player. And I feel like many of the “solo que” arguments spring from the idea that they do not want to be the butt of the joke. They do not want to be the second-class citizen in this community.

But there just isn't enough game here for everyone to have a place. Scenarios really are "make a group or gtfo" and there is no place for casual players or solo players in them. There are many things about this effort that one will simply have to accept and this is just one of them.

Scenrios are for premades, PuGs are their prey.

Spoiler:

make another queue for players under 20
so people coming up can still queue for RR
and level 20s get even matches

for the most part it's the people leveling who create unbalanced scs

Spoiler:

I see both sides of the argument and I fall on the side that Grulo has been voicing but I understand its not good for the player base if they feel they have no chance. From day one this game has been about grouping, so no premade does not = meta gaming. Make a friend, join a guild, learn your skills and what rotation is optimal. Communication is what makes a good premade.

I forget what GW2 called their competetive q but they had a quing system that would allow you to q solo to full group and then a random pug qing system. Not sure how that could ever be implemented but with the player base as it is now it would not work.

Spoiler:

long post inc....

I started off as a casual player in War long long ago, it was my first mmo. I didnt know what detaunt was or pots or really anything. I joined a invite everyone guild and I got a little better at the game. The experienced people taught me some things and i stopped dying all the time. I was a pug. I did not know any better. I didnt know what word of pain was or if i was being loaded up on by a sorc or if some squigg was setting me up for a M2 bomb. It wasnt until I really started trying to learn about the game and the other classes that I got any better. Where am i going with this?

Eventually some nice hardcore people took me in and I learned to assist and such as penril has stated in all his posts. BUT the desire to be better at the game has to be there from the player. If a pug wants to be a pug they arent going to get any better at the game and that frustrates the hardcore players whether they be solo or not. Ive run in top end premades and EC, eternal citadel, weekends were like christmas for us. We got to fight the other 6mans and test our skill versus theres because that is what most hardcore players are looking for.

Some as Penril said as well just want to stop pugs, i can name a few guilds on this server that do it all the time and call themselves the elite but wont because I dont need this turning into some troll post. I do not think seperating the ques is a good thing to do. It will create serious que issues for the groups that want to do SCs. I think the SC balance issue in general would be alot less of one if the following happened:

1. only 6 grouped players per 12 man side of an SC
2. the other slots should fill the needed rolls of a balanced group, min 1 tank and 1 healer class, whether they heal or dps or whether they are an FO tank cant be solved most likely without major work.

This gives the hardcore players a chance to fight equal competition and encourages them to help their "pug group" get better at the game a bit. It also shows new players what a group should look like without them having to ask, and encourages players to play a tank or healer for quick pops. The balance of the pug group is the most essential part of this fix because without it they are most likely 6 dps with no healer running in and dying.

my 2 cents.

Spoiler:

This is going to sound really rude, but that is not how I intended it, I can't figure another way to phrase it.

What is your definition of a "premade" op, because I have not seen very many guilds who run full grps. Maybe 4 guildies together but outside that, which guilds even run full premades?

I say this because if you were to split the ques, I dont think there are that many guilds who would consistently put together a full grp. I assume what would then happen is there would many small grps of premades and you would have similar issues of communication in the SC?

Honestly I dont mean to be rude.

[Jaycub]

Order guilds purposely losing every SC to draw it longer to farm pugs... Been doing it for days.


Its time we get solo and group que or they will continue to abuse this, it's just retarded. People say the population cant support it, but I know during prime time there is enough for a good amount of 6v6 pops. And the alternative... what we have now, is turning 6 mans in TS w/ meta builds loose on pugs which is honestly worse.

There is clearly something wrong w/ the system when organized groups are purposely losing.

[Elenol]

Spoiler:

Throwing pugs into the mix in a premade vs premade throws any chance of actual competition out the window. If you beat the other team they will just hide behind the "our pugs were ****" argument. If I am playing with a 6 man, I want to fight other 6 mans and when I beat them I want to know they had the same grounding as us.

At the same time I want to be able to pug and play less seriously (no mics / communication or deep strategy), but not run into dorks running meta milker premades turning the scenario into a concentration camp for the other side. Which is what happens often right now.

This would mean solo que MMR, and Group Que MMR. 6v6 competitive SC que (MMR tied to guild), 12v12 pug solo only que, and 12v12 casual group/solo que.

But that's just my opinion, and something I probably picked up after playing so many competitive games. Some people can argue that warhammer isn't designed, nor should be designed or re tooled by the devs to cater to people like me. But I will give my 2 cents anyways. I would like to see SC's become the competitive side of WAR, and ORvR to be the casual/fun side.

Spoiler:

yes but i think its easier to manage that via the scenarios rather then having to programme the queue system new. (this will take months prbly.).

So open up the citadel for 6vs6 fight and you basically done with your premade queue.
For then, group queue could even be disabled for all other scs and queue syncing prohibited by shuffling any queuer to different scenarios randomly.

i think we are better of with a small step to play with as to wait for months or even years for the big thing.

Spoiler:

Most sub 20 players you see are just alts from the same group of people. Therefore, new brackets won't solve anything.

The same lvl 20 premades that always win in SCs will still win in a lvl 12-19 bracket while leveling their alts. A lvl 19 character wearing Calamitous gear will still farm lvl 12 players just as hard as a lvl 20 would. Just last weekend i played my lvl 17 AM with two friends (lvl 15 IB and lvl 16 WL). We won all the SCs we played together.

SCs are about coordinated groups fighting each other. If you don't want to coordinate or be a team player, then either:

- don't join SCs and stick to oRvR.
- Join them but don't complain later if you lose all the time.

The problem is people don't like any of these options. They feel they are entitled to playing SCs however they want, and therefore demand that certain aspects of the game are changed.

[Or maybe more than those 2 options such as what is being discussed.]

Spoiler:

i actually love 6v6 idea for groups. we could have some proper tactics, with capturing, ambushing people and what not.

keep the others as they are, and yes, I do both guild premades and solo.

[Elenol]

Spoiler:

Yet the demands started with a prefabricated issue where players attempting to queue as a group were dodging and causing unbalanced scenarios. Holding the normal queue hostage by continuing this behavior created the leverage on Aza to implement the group queue. Now the hostage takers want everyone who disagrees with them to quit the game because it's how they want it now. I suppose they will convert to your authoritarian takeover of the imposed meta of the game, or leave. Or queue solo with lv12 toons to annoy you.

Spoiler:

never though I would say that but I am really suprised how much ingorant players are posting here. I would not point fingers but when I reread whole discussion there are players who are posting thing A on one page and then post B that is completely different to A and then they continue in doing that with every post....

like saying there premade vs premade might be great and premades arent there to smash pugs but like competion etc, then - there is no problem premade smashing pugs and its only your fault you get smashed etc.

sorry but show me where is that competion you seek in fighting 2 premades vs. mix of lvl 12-20 random guys that could well be 2 dps healers, 1 lol dps tank and rest dps?

talking about learning and getting better in pve instance? for gods sake. what can u actually learn except that you have to be max lvl with "eng game" gear, only 1 viable spec and best possible talis and when u reach that you can start learning not to get roflstomped when u face premade.

and competion? ok - from pve pov - premade facing pugs is pretty much like being able to be in warpforged and doing t4 PQs with your grp. same tier? yea. challenging? competition? dont know.

1 thing that is true - well played premade should always roflstomp pugs and it should always be like that.

-----end of rant and back to topic :

Question that remains - should it be possible to face same premade X time in row? isnt it possible to somehow improve sc queue? like when destro get premade, give higher priority to order premade in sc queue and fill remaining slots with solo or duos etc.? that way you would have 1 premade on both sides and another 6 players providing meat shield. you can learn even from watching what is the premade doing (tanks moving with mdps providing guard, CC, assist ...) and learn that this is better than running around like headless chicken and trying to kill turtle tank etc.

Spoiler:

Grumcajs, the reason some people are against separate queues is NOT because we want to farm pugs and bads all day. It is because our waiting times would increase by a lot.

So instead, we are giving some suggestions on how to quickly form a premade, so there is actually BETTER competition in SCs. "Casual" players won't get stomped all the time and "elite" premades will get better fights. Everybody wins.

Spoiler:

Everyone drops Q sometimes when there is good action in ORVR.

Seperating Qs will result in longer wait times, and probably only a few premades will Q as group, since a large fraction of the premades are really just friends playing random comps, which is not much different than PUGs.

Anti PM QQ is crazy in every game, just take a look at the rift forums and they even have a match making system in place.

Spoiler:

Yet you continue with the personal attacks. I truly do not understand this avenue of discourse.

As a moderator I respond to reports, assist players in the tech forums, and monitor the forums for truly inappropriate behavior. My opinions on the direction and state of the game are just as valuable as any one else here.

Your workaround destroyed the functionality of the queue, which had been fine for months. It was intentional and deliberate. The demands in the previous thread were for a proper group queue, and the defense to distract from those actions was that solo players were using the in-game social tools to dodge when they saw members of a premade in a Scenario zone during a pop.

Spoiler:

My first post on this subject, the one where I say I'm bad and do bad things, and ignore my team, and die, and play badly. Etc. That's a type of player, that's a large base of your casual player. That's the player who probably isn't going to come to the forum and defend their interests. That's a player who is going to see themselves getting farmed on a regular basis because the environment is now ever more strongly skewed to competitive PvP.

Personally, I play a couple hours per week, but my background with WAR is extensive. I played for a very long time on the live servers, in a guild, doing competitive PvP, and rather successfully. My concern is for the general health of RoR, and that does include casual players who are taking a look at the game for the first time in several years. It's hard enough that we're running an alpha, do we really need to turn it into your highly competitive PvP wet dream? While scenarios are the most structured as far as getting evenly matched groups together, they're also the easiest to get immediate action and play for an hour. They hold a lot of potential for both casual and competitive play, and if the game is to continue to retain players it's important to retain those qualities.

You claim you don't want to play against pugs, but you have to because they're bad and need to "git gud". Casual players are a problem that need to be eliminated, or discouraged, so you have your PvP arenas filled with competitive play. You couldn't possibly have a separate queue for premades because it takes away your ability to have instant action, and everyone would queue solo anyway. Why do you think that's the case? Perhaps because tons of players like to drop into solo q and NOT play a highly organized PvP match every time?

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Grulo, Im not asking for premade only, pug only queue. 

On several occassions I have tried to provide something that would "make it better for pugs" while still keeping 1 queue for all :

1)queue as grp lockout for 2 mins or so after sc end so it would give a room for pugs to have their headless instanced pvp.
2)give lockout to premade that would move them to lower priority list for queue after sc end. so the 6 spots for sc arent taken right from the start
3)once grp join sc, give higher priority to enemy grp and fill the other 6 spots with "pugs" (solo, duo) - I think that might sounds better cuz it wouldnt cripple you joining as grp and would give u chance to fight enemy grp with equal number or pugs on both sides

About these suggestions how to quickly form a premade:
- have you posted something about - lvl to atleast 18 first
- equip some solid gear + talis
- forget about dps if u are healer or tank

All I have read was just talking how simple it is to form a premade on your own - just ask on advice as example
You all have forgot to list these 3 things I have mentioned.
It might seems simple. I have no problem to get to grp when I have asked lvl 20 s/b chosen lfg (though I had only green items from vendor). Also I have seen how our grp leader was yelling at pugs something like - we need lvl 20 choppa, not lvl 17 choppa... etc.