[Zarbix] Talking about class balance

[Xergon]

MSH is so reliant on other classes to perform in competitive enviroment and has hard counters too... I love all the meme and whine material because its hilarious but on topic you shouldn't give the devs biased and inaccurate information regarding the class... can MSH be annoying sure... everything can in the right hands and played correctly... does it make it more scary than a proper choppa or mara no not really. If you think MSH is OP then slayer is also OP both pretty straight forward classes but some people struggle to put out the damage numbers they should be doing.

In our alliance i team with some competent dps players, and if i was against them id rather face the MSH stack than their choppa's or marauders alts.

You say this as you now main a MSH, the class in aoe spec is ok in theory, the problem comes in that because Destro has 2 aoe cooldown decreasers it means that Big Bouncing is pretty much spammable, meaning that MSH can now put out damage close to Slayer levels while retaining double to survivability and triple the cc and utility of a Slayer. Basically the cooldown decreasers make MSH OP.

That is just to AOE warband spec, the 1v1 is even worse with Pet hitting for double what a Lions does without having to sacrifice anything to get that damage. Overall the class is just completely broken in every spec.

this ....
I would not complain about msh much if not this combo ..and im fully aware that TUP members were active in this tread and were trying to impose that CD reductors available for two most common des classes do not benefit their realm at all
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42746&start=20
now you may see why .........
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/874896006

Sorry Wam but i don't believe in your sincere intentions

But don't worry ..according to "not well informed" gossips this time daddy loves his Frankenstein. Maybe because influence of ppl like you.

Thanks for linking my vid, you actually provided proof to buff MSH:
The allmighty MSH with 1k STR, 950WS cannot do **** to some random AM through detaunt... plox buff...
https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantLively ... StrawBeary

[Xergon]

or you can counter it with slayer chatter limbz

Which realm exactly do you want help with such argument ??? Havent you palyed with cd reduction buff ??? especialy waagh ...chop fasta combo

So what is the complaint here about aoe city mSH (without pet)? That the class is not really a burst nor consistant aoe dps role before it has one of the Orcs in the party to feed it cooldown reduction? The video is a pretty good example of how it looks in best case scenario when it has close to full uptime. but I also see no attempts on shutting down the mSH. No taunts, no focus snares to keep a rDPS archtype with no snarebreakers in place. It is a 2-3player combo getting free reign and then it should have high impact, just on that principle alone right?

Dont get me wrong, i think SH is getting too much tankiness for free for building classcanon and it has low risk gameplay from that + "get out of jail" freecards. but the counterplay for shutting a greenskin CDD-comboed AoeMeatball down is very much there. Champchallenge takes the get out of jail freecards away, same with Knight No Escape making them stand there for full duration, Aoe interrupting a Meatball stack makes them deal close to zero criticalmass so SM becomes close to a hardcounter to MSH comps. And honestly with how silly easy a meatball is to spot, every tank in a city instance should be able to land atleast 1-2 taunts to interrupt a meatball during each fight imho.

I started gearing mine to see what the fuss was about, same as i did with my choppa a year ago when orderlings complained about invader choppas. playing these classes gives a good firsthand experience to see how strong the **** is, and how potent the counterplay is.

They actually started shutting me down, at stage3, u can watch carefull how Mago on hes SM is 24/7 on me, with Challenges, M2, Interrupt, Taunt and every other possible cancer... because of him Leaky passed me in dmg... so unfair...

[Charon]

You say this as you now main a MSH, the class in aoe spec is ok in theory, the problem comes in that because Destro has 2 aoe cooldown decreasers it means that Big Bouncing is pretty much spammable, meaning that MSH can now put out damage close to Slayer levels while retaining double to survivability and triple the cc and utility of a Slayer. Basically the cooldown decreasers make MSH OP.

That is just to AOE warband spec, the 1v1 is even worse with Pet hitting for double what a Lions does without having to sacrifice anything to get that damage. Overall the class is just completely broken in every spec.

this ....
I would not complain about msh much if not this combo ..and im fully aware that TUP members were active in this tread and were trying to impose that CD reductors available for two most common des classes do not benefit their realm at all
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42746&start=20
now you may see why .........
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/874896006

Sorry Wam but i don't believe in your sincere intentions

But don't worry ..according to "not well informed" gossips this time daddy loves his Frankenstein. Maybe because influence of ppl like you.

Thanks for linking my vid, you actually provided prove to buff MSH:
The allmighty MSH with 1k STR, 950WS cannot do **** to some random AM through detaunt... plox buff...
https://clips.twitch.tv/ImportantLively ... StrawBeary

Are you aoe suppres dps or st pt member ..pls i have respect for you (you should wait to m3 if you really had wanted this solo kill...but what for every else was dying fast enough).

[Gurf]

or you can counter it with slayer chatter limbz

Which realm exactly do you want help with such argument ??? Havent you palyed with cd reduction buff ??? especialy waagh ...chop fasta combo

[mSH petless city build only post]
So what is the complaint here about aoe city mSH (without pet)? That the class is not really a burst nor consistant aoe dps role before it has one of the Orcs in the party to feed it cooldown reduction? The video is a pretty good example of how it looks in best case scenario when it has close to full uptime. but I also see no attempts on shutting down the mSH. No taunts, no focus snares to keep a rDPS archtype with no snarebreakers in place. It is a 2-3player combo getting free reign and then it should have high impact, just on that principle alone right?

Dont get me wrong, i think mSH is getting too much tankiness for free for building classcanon and it has low risk gameplay from that + "get out of jail" freecards.
Example: Whole last patch the Squigarmor didnt stack with armorpotion and there was no outcry about it from msh because half of them didnt even notice. if any other class suddenly didnt feel their armorpotion working im sure there would be tears
But the counterplay for shutting a greenskin CDD-comboed AoeMeatball down is very much there. Champchallenge takes the get out of jail freecards away, same with Knight No Escape making them stand there for full duration, Aoe interrupting a Meatball stack makes them deal close to zero criticalmass so SM becomes close to a hardcounter to MSH comps. And honestly with how silly easy a meatball is to spot, every tank in a city instance should be able to land atleast 1-2 taunts to interrupt a meatball during each fight imho.

Suggestion: If people really think MSH is too hard to shut down i say slap a 10% increase on the total Big Bouncing channel on the ability, but make it ramp up the longer you succesfully channel. That rewards good timing of using the ability, and interrupting it. Makes the build a little less braindead.
I started gearing mine to see what the fuss was about, same as i did with my choppa a year ago when orderlings complained about invader choppas. playing these classes gives a good firsthand experience to see how strong the **** is, and how potent the counterplay is.

They try shutting him down in Stage 3 but he still pretty much has Big Bouncing on Spam. But its a weird game when the enemy needs to focus on shutting down utility class like MSH instead of the classes with the risk mechanic who should be the ones putting out the big damage. You say this is an example of best case scenario but it is very simple to get either a Black Ork or Choppa in party, often both. The SH Leakypants in the video has only a Choppa and no BO and he puts out more damage than Xergit who has both, so not exactly best case scenario, rather what is normal and common for any MSH in a warband

[Charon]

or you can counter it with slayer chatter limbz

Which realm exactly do you want help with such argument ??? Havent you palyed with cd reduction buff ??? especialy waagh ...chop fasta combo

[mSH petless city build only post]
So what is the complaint here about aoe city mSH (without pet)? That the class is not really a burst nor consistant aoe dps role before it has one of the Orcs in the party to feed it cooldown reduction? The video is a pretty good example of how it looks in best case scenario when it has close to full uptime. but I also see no attempts on shutting down the mSH. No taunts, no focus snares to keep a rDPS archtype with no snarebreakers in place. It is a 2-3player combo getting free reign and then it should have high impact, just on that principle alone right?

Dont get me wrong, i think mSH is getting too much tankiness for free for building classcanon and it has low risk gameplay from that + "get out of jail" freecards.
Example: Whole last patch the Squigarmor didnt stack with armorpotion and there was no outcry about it from msh because half of them didnt even notice. if any other class suddenly didnt feel their armorpotion working im sure there would be tears
But the counterplay for shutting a greenskin CDD-comboed AoeMeatball down is very much there. Champchallenge takes the get out of jail freecards away, same with Knight No Escape making them stand there for full duration, Aoe interrupting a Meatball stack makes them deal close to zero criticalmass so SM becomes close to a hardcounter to MSH comps. And honestly with how silly easy a meatball is to spot, every tank in a city instance should be able to land atleast 1-2 taunts to interrupt a meatball during each fight imho.

Suggestion: If people really think MSH is too hard to shut down i say slap a 10% increase on the total Big Bouncing channel on the ability, but make it ramp up the longer you succesfully channel. That rewards good timing of using the ability, and interrupting it. Makes the build a little less braindead.
I started gearing mine to see what the fuss was about, same as i did with my choppa a year ago when orderlings complained about invader choppas. playing these classes gives a good firsthand experience to see how strong the **** is, and how potent the counterplay is.

Thx Bombling ....now we are talking closer to the reality ...free card jail break with glass canon mode ..its the issue i want to underline. Powerhouse of waagh + chop fasta combo ... yes sure... this is exact reason of my complaining behaviour at this forum.

and about this vod

Conterplay ....Do you remember (we were playing together..right) how badly you were complaining about how destro is able to shutdown your BW.. Yes it was fully legit tactic ..but destro has much more and better tools to do that..(msh is one of them). Just compare amount and quality/access of interrupts/cc at order vs destro.

To do exactly the same interrupt combo (we were trying that tactic right) that you are suggesting, order wb need to have at least 4-6 SM-s in WB (and take into consideration CA limits), But, I don't know why, order hates Sm-s (all order is a bit like BT roleplay pack) and numbers of this tank is really low......(thx to proving their generall mistake). Of course to some extend this number can be balanced by wl-s .. with their 15-ft interrupt. But wait.... even Wl is those days very limited resource. So you know access to this kind wb tools can be not so easy to get.

Whats is more.
Ok, you can put all tanks in wb focus to taunt interrupt this 1 selected target and what do you will achieve ... Nothing special because msh can start his BB over and over again ..or just disengage or use instant casts. Other tools ChCh... No Escape ...you need to reach them, have them, survive to this moment, sacrifice other tools...Its possible but sometimes hard to get..much harder than to get good morale at destro. At the end ...all those resources you gonna spend to shut down 1 target. But, there is still additional 7 destro dps to deal with.... what with them. In most common situation is like Xerg said, he was still killing ppl but just Leakypants did more dmg.

AND NOW conclusions... like always at order. To counter this way ad hoc (xerg pt is not near maximum of efectivenes) composed destro warband you need specialised conterplay and much more strictly created group. tactic, execution, skill. Do you see limitation here...especially in alts era... its general difference between realms .. and it gives destruction strategical offensive advantage at least at most common mid level of play. That's all.... but generally snowballing long turn effect in population is visible ..even you are playing at destro now.... right.

[Xergon]

or you can counter it with slayer chatter limbz

Which realm exactly do you want help with such argument ??? Havent you palyed with cd reduction buff ??? especialy waagh ...chop fasta combo

[mSH petless city build only post]
So what is the complaint here about aoe city mSH (without pet)? That the class is not really a burst nor consistant aoe dps role before it has one of the Orcs in the party to feed it cooldown reduction? The video is a pretty good example of how it looks in best case scenario when it has close to full uptime. but I also see no attempts on shutting down the mSH. No taunts, no focus snares to keep a rDPS archtype with no snarebreakers in place. It is a 2-3player combo getting free reign and then it should have high impact, just on that principle alone right?

Dont get me wrong, i think mSH is getting too much tankiness for free for building classcanon and it has low risk gameplay from that + "get out of jail" freecards.
Example: Whole last patch the Squigarmor didnt stack with armorpotion and there was no outcry about it from msh because half of them didnt even notice. if any other class suddenly didnt feel their armorpotion working im sure there would be tears
But the counterplay for shutting a greenskin CDD-comboed AoeMeatball down is very much there. Champchallenge takes the get out of jail freecards away, same with Knight No Escape making them stand there for full duration, Aoe interrupting a Meatball stack makes them deal close to zero criticalmass so SM becomes close to a hardcounter to MSH comps. And honestly with how silly easy a meatball is to spot, every tank in a city instance should be able to land atleast 1-2 taunts to interrupt a meatball during each fight imho.

Suggestion: If people really think MSH is too hard to shut down i say slap a 10% increase on the total Big Bouncing channel on the ability, but make it ramp up the longer you succesfully channel. That rewards good timing of using the ability, and interrupting it. Makes the build a little less braindead.
I started gearing mine to see what the fuss was about, same as i did with my choppa a year ago when orderlings complained about invader choppas. playing these classes gives a good firsthand experience to see how strong the **** is, and how potent the counterplay is.

I would gladly take any Spammable AoE aka SlashingBlade which would allow to actually do AoE independent of CD Reducer and as a form of filler in Rotation. If that would happen then increase cooldown on BB from 8s to like 10-13s to match WhirlewingAxe. So for most effective AoE output u would want to use BadGas + channel BB to finish with Indigestion/NewAoE. This would put more possibility to counterplay BB burst while not gutting MSH AoE to actually play class.

[Xergon]

Spoiler:

Which realm exactly do you want help with such argument ??? Havent you palyed with cd reduction buff ??? especialy waagh ...chop fasta combo

[mSH petless city build only post]
So what is the complaint here about aoe city mSH (without pet)? That the class is not really a burst nor consistant aoe dps role before it has one of the Orcs in the party to feed it cooldown reduction? The video is a pretty good example of how it looks in best case scenario when it has close to full uptime. but I also see no attempts on shutting down the mSH. No taunts, no focus snares to keep a rDPS archtype with no snarebreakers in place. It is a 2-3player combo getting free reign and then it should have high impact, just on that principle alone right?

Dont get me wrong, i think mSH is getting too much tankiness for free for building classcanon and it has low risk gameplay from that + "get out of jail" freecards.
Example: Whole last patch the Squigarmor didnt stack with armorpotion and there was no outcry about it from msh because half of them didnt even notice. if any other class suddenly didnt feel their armorpotion working im sure there would be tears
But the counterplay for shutting a greenskin CDD-comboed AoeMeatball down is very much there. Champchallenge takes the get out of jail freecards away, same with Knight No Escape making them stand there for full duration, Aoe interrupting a Meatball stack makes them deal close to zero criticalmass so SM becomes close to a hardcounter to MSH comps. And honestly with how silly easy a meatball is to spot, every tank in a city instance should be able to land atleast 1-2 taunts to interrupt a meatball during each fight imho.

Suggestion: If people really think MSH is too hard to shut down i say slap a 10% increase on the total Big Bouncing channel on the ability, but make it ramp up the longer you succesfully channel. That rewards good timing of using the ability, and interrupting it. Makes the build a little less braindead.
I started gearing mine to see what the fuss was about, same as i did with my choppa a year ago when orderlings complained about invader choppas. playing these classes gives a good firsthand experience to see how strong the **** is, and how potent the counterplay is.

Thx Bombling ....now we are talking closer to the reality ...free card jail break with glass canon mode ..its the issue i want to underline. Powerhouse of waagh + chop fasta combo ... yes sure... this is exact reason of my complaining behaviour at this forum.

and about this vod

Conterplay ....Do you remember (we were playing together..right) how badly you were complaining about how destro is able to shutdown your BW.. Yes it was fully legit tactic ..but destro has much more and better tools to do that..(msh is one of them). Just compare amount and quality/access of interrupts/cc at order vs destro.

To do exactly the same interrupt combo (we were trying that tactic right) that you are suggesting, order wb need to have at least 4-6 SM-s in WB (and take into consideration CA limits), But, I don't know why, order hates Sm-s (all order is a bit like BT roleplay pack) and numbers of this tank is really low......(thx to proving their generall mistake). Of course to some extend this number can be balanced by wl-s .. with their 15-ft interrupt. But wait.... even Wl is those days very limited resource. So you know access to this kind wb tools can be not so easy to get.

Whats is more.
Ok, you can put all tanks in wb focus to taunt interrupt this 1 selected target and what do you will achieve ... Nothing special because msh can start his BB over and over again ..or just disengage or use instant casts. Other tools ChCh... No Escape ...you need to reach them, have them, survive to this moment, sacrifice other tools...Its possible but sometimes hard to get..much harder than to get good morale at destro. At the end ...all those resources you gonna spend to shut down 1 target. But, there is still additional 7 destro dps to deal with.... what with them. In most common situation is like Xerg said, he was still killing ppl but just Leakypants did more dmg.

AND NOW conclusions... like always at order. To counter this way ad hoc (xerg pt is not near maximum of efectivenes) composed destro warband you need specialised conterplay and much more strictly created group. tactic, execution, skill. Do you see limitation here...especially in alts era... its general difference between realms .. and it gives destruction strategical offensive advantage at least at most common mid level of play. That's all.... but generally snowballing long turn effect in population is visible ..even you are playing at destro now.... right.

When u meet enemy who actually know how to play their classes:

[VindicoAtrum]

You are probably living in another world but SW has better burst than SH both in both Ranged and Melee builds. The only CC tools SW lacked compared to SH were AoE knock back and run away tactic and they were both nerfed to ground anyway.

lol, SHs also have a run away ability, base line, no requirements, 30% speed boost, 10s, 60s cooldown, no tactic required. That alone is a game changer when jumped by someone, to escape when zerg surfing or to catch someone. The SW version requires a tactic slot but you cant give up any and it is worse - needs stance switch, only 20% boost and only 5s, with no cooldown.

SW has stuff like Steady Aim which gives you 25% higher crit but 1s longer build up for every ability. It is useless. Nobody using it. There you see... Order only gets stuff with a draw back. Destro just gets stuff without draw back.

I'd strongly suggest ignoring anyone arguing that SW is even close to SH. Sensible people know it's not.

[Charon]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[mSH petless city build only post]
So what is the complaint here about aoe city mSH (without pet)? That the class is not really a burst nor consistant aoe dps role before it has one of the Orcs in the party to feed it cooldown reduction? The video is a pretty good example of how it looks in best case scenario when it has close to full uptime. but I also see no attempts on shutting down the mSH. No taunts, no focus snares to keep a rDPS archtype with no snarebreakers in place. It is a 2-3player combo getting free reign and then it should have high impact, just on that principle alone right?

Dont get me wrong, i think mSH is getting too much tankiness for free for building classcanon and it has low risk gameplay from that + "get out of jail" freecards.
Example: Whole last patch the Squigarmor didnt stack with armorpotion and there was no outcry about it from msh because half of them didnt even notice. if any other class suddenly didnt feel their armorpotion working im sure there would be tears
But the counterplay for shutting a greenskin CDD-comboed AoeMeatball down is very much there. Champchallenge takes the get out of jail freecards away, same with Knight No Escape making them stand there for full duration, Aoe interrupting a Meatball stack makes them deal close to zero criticalmass so SM becomes close to a hardcounter to MSH comps. And honestly with how silly easy a meatball is to spot, every tank in a city instance should be able to land atleast 1-2 taunts to interrupt a meatball during each fight imho.

Suggestion: If people really think MSH is too hard to shut down i say slap a 10% increase on the total Big Bouncing channel on the ability, but make it ramp up the longer you succesfully channel. That rewards good timing of using the ability, and interrupting it. Makes the build a little less braindead.
I started gearing mine to see what the fuss was about, same as i did with my choppa a year ago when orderlings complained about invader choppas. playing these classes gives a good firsthand experience to see how strong the **** is, and how potent the counterplay is.

Thx Bombling ....now we are talking closer to the reality ...free card jail break with glass canon mode ..its the issue i want to underline. Powerhouse of waagh + chop fasta combo ... yes sure... this is exact reason of my complaining behaviour at this forum.

and about this vod

Conterplay ....Do you remember (we were playing together..right) how badly you were complaining about how destro is able to shutdown your BW.. Yes it was fully legit tactic ..but destro has much more and better tools to do that..(msh is one of them). Just compare amount and quality/access of interrupts/cc at order vs destro.

To do exactly the same interrupt combo (we were trying that tactic right) that you are suggesting, order wb need to have at least 4-6 SM-s in WB (and take into consideration CA limits), But, I don't know why, order hates Sm-s (all order is a bit like BT roleplay pack) and numbers of this tank is really low......(thx to proving their generall mistake). Of course to some extend this number can be balanced by wl-s .. with their 15-ft interrupt. But wait.... even Wl is those days very limited resource. So you know access to this kind wb tools can be not so easy to get.

Whats is more.
Ok, you can put all tanks in wb focus to taunt interrupt this 1 selected target and what do you will achieve ... Nothing special because msh can start his BB over and over again ..or just disengage or use instant casts. Other tools ChCh... No Escape ...you need to reach them, have them, survive to this moment, sacrifice other tools...Its possible but sometimes hard to get..much harder than to get good morale at destro. At the end ...all those resources you gonna spend to shut down 1 target. But, there is still additional 7 destro dps to deal with.... what with them. In most common situation is like Xerg said, he was still killing ppl but just Leakypants did more dmg.

AND NOW conclusions... like always at order. To counter this way ad hoc (xerg pt is not near maximum of efectivenes) composed destro warband you need specialised conterplay and much more strictly created group. tactic, execution, skill. Do you see limitation here...especially in alts era... its general difference between realms .. and it gives destruction strategical offensive advantage at least at most common mid level of play. That's all.... but generally snowballing long turn effect in population is visible ..even you are playing at destro now.... right.

When u meet enemy who actually know how to play their classes:

let me guess ..Ywhii / Beautybeast nad Celiana;) killed your healers ???

[mryay]

Spoiler:

May be
you right RoR is not AoR but RvR is RvR not PvP.
i think Balance PvP create problem in RvR game
Range play without risk , lot of tools , cc , etc...

ranges must understand that they are support and not main dps (except sorc and bw) .
I think when you play engineer / magus , SH / SW you must have a correct dps but far from being as big as now because the distance / tools def / cc / dps balance is not respected


Today Dev try too create new system is pretty good for the game just let's wait until they find the desired balance, good luck for that

I disagree with the part "ranges must understand that they are support and not main DPS (except sorc and be) ", precisely because of what you say just before "Range play without risk , lot of tools , cc , etc...".

A DPS can be either main range DPS or support DPS, however, for the sake of promoting team play and realm play you MUST NOT combine great damage + great survival + great CC. BW & Sorcerer are in this spot: if they continue to deal high damage, they shot themselves. If a SW focuses on support and/or survival, the DPS is really mehhhh.

And this is why MMORPG RVR fostering the holy trinity are so popular, they make synergetic teams outperforming significantly individuals/solo/pick up groups.

I don't mind that rSH has that much burst damage and mobility, but it has to give up significantly the CC. Or abandon mobility for much less CC, etc.

Another way to balance it is to provide natural predators, in a rock-paper-scissor system, like it sort of used to be in the Age of Reckoning. WL Nerf/damaging tree lines is a consequence of more SH running in the lakes. Give them back their original pounce and they will "Thin the herd".

Similarly, I am more in favor of removing the short-range pounce to the WE and giving it to the Marauder. This way you have:
- WL -[is predator of]-> SH
- Marauder -[is predator of] -> SW
WE and WH are predators of (almost) everything anyway .

Cheers

You are probably living in another world but SW has better burst than SH both in both Ranged and Melee builds. The only CC tools SW lacked compared to SH were AoE knock back and run away tactic and they were both nerfed to ground anyway. However most people are not even aware that SW has one of the best escape tools moral 1 cleanse and AP boost. Anyone who plays on both sides would notice that with the recent range changes it is harder to kill a SW than a ranged SH ( that's ofc if one knows how to play and use range advantage). Can anyone see a RSH performing well in 6vs6? The usual Destro nerf crusade group can cry rivers here if they like but it is obvious the same people parrot the same weak and unsupported arguments under different threads. No combat logs, no videos, nothing. But yeah SH is overturned in your minds. And we believe you...

Are you trolling or are you serious?