Nerf WH/WE into the ground

[rorswar]

To give some context - right now my build has a very difficult time countering DPS RP.
I specifically build for 1v1 melee fights.

OMG. “My OP class can’t deal with the other grossly overpowered class in the game. QQ”

At least, by your own admission, there aren’t that many DPS RPs, whilst the lake is swarming with WEs. Even worse, these pr0 solo players rarely play alone, as it’s common to be unstealthed on by multiple WEs, and I’m sure it’s the same with WHs.

I love how WEs call it “strategy” whilst they struggle with one class.

[Fey]

It's best to just /sit, and wait for respawn. That's what I do on my SM. It works every time!

[Avanos]

To give some context - right now my build has a very difficult time countering DPS RP.
I specifically build for 1v1 melee fights.

OMG. “My OP class can’t deal with the other grossly overpowered class in the game. QQ”

At least, by your own admission, there aren’t that many DPS RPs, whilst the lake is swarming with WEs. Even worse, these pr0 solo players rarely play alone, as it’s common to be unstealthed on by multiple WEs, and I’m sure it’s the same with WHs.

I love how WEs call it “strategy” whilst they struggle with one class.

Thanks for proving my point.

I mentioned DPS RP specifically because it's one of the few matchups my build struggles with.

My response wasn't "nerf DPS RP."

My response was "adapt, choose your fights, and play around the matchup."

If more people approached WE/WH/WL/AM/ETC the same way instead of immediately demanding changes, we'd probably have fewer balance threads.

[Lescargo]

It is definitely a skill issue as everything can be stopped or countered.

Nothing more nothing less.

[lumpi33]

It is definitely a skill issue as everything can be stopped or countered.

Nothing more nothing less.

Yeah, says the WE... and then the other WEs in here agree on it...

[Avanos]

It is definitely a skill issue as everything can be stopped or countered.

Nothing more nothing less.

Yeah, says the WE... and then the other WEs in here agree on it...

Try playing a WE or WH.

[rorswar]

To give some context - right now my build has a very difficult time countering DPS RP.
I specifically build for 1v1 melee fights.

OMG. “My OP class can’t deal with the other grossly overpowered class in the game. QQ”

At least, by your own admission, there aren’t that many DPS RPs, whilst the lake is swarming with WEs. Even worse, these pr0 solo players rarely play alone, as it’s common to be unstealthed on by multiple WEs, and I’m sure it’s the same with WHs.

I love how WEs call it “strategy” whilst they struggle with one class.

Thanks for proving my point.

I mentioned DPS RP specifically because it's one of the few matchups my build struggles with.

My response wasn't "nerf DPS RP."

My response was "adapt, choose your fights, and play around the matchup."

If more people approached WE/WH/WL/AM/ETC the same way instead of immediately demanding changes, we'd probably have fewer balance threads.

Thanks for proving my point as well.

It’s easy to adapt when you play one of the few OP classes. It’s like billionaires saying young people should eat less avocado toast.

Oh and your response wasn’t “nerf DPS RP”? …is this you:

Remove ability to swap between heal and dps spec on the fly.

Oh look, you want to nerf SW as well:

KD is fine as it is..
IMO the perm move speed buff from guerilla tactics does need a slight nerf though.. Perhaps have it trigger on a 10-15 second cooldown instead of 5 sec.

How about that adapt mentality of yours? At least you score high on hypocrisy.

[Shieldslam]

"choose your fights"

Nobody except for WE/WH can effectively choose their fights the way you suggest. You just stealth or stagger > stealth. It comes back to how slippery the classes are and how they can get away from being caught/bad matchups in a way every other class can only dream of. IF a stealther never wants to die they absolutely have the toolkit to achieve that because they have the luxury of being able to pick every single fight, this luxury has to be considered when balancing the class. You cannot have the superpower of invisibility and then be as strong, or stronger, than other classes outside of it as well - that's not how game balancing works.
No idea why for some it's so hard to see that a class which has the following is quite literally overtuned:
1) long duration stealth
2) can build unbelievably tanky while still doing threatening!!! damage
3) burst dmg but also armor ignoring abilities, in case of WE fully focusing on magical damage so they can ignore WS as a stat entirely opening up even more options for defense
4) 6s stagger to avoid a fight after being caught
6) 2x slowing gapcloser in a game where only 3 classes (though 2 are locked behind conditions) even have one so you can't even disengage

Genuinely, where's the downside? The weakness? Not being literally invincible? Stealth having 30s cd? The patience needed to sit at an empty BO for a while? Tanks/Dps healers have no escapes, pet classes terrible unreliable AI to deal with, rangedps being squishy, what's WE downside at this point?

The only arguments in here are just "oh but they can die", "skill issue" and "it's not as easy as you think" meanwhile every def WE killboard shows like 18k+ dmg taken while they has to do nothing but press 3 buttons and autowin due to tankiness/regen outlasting while dots tick. Tanks can do the same, mdps can do the same, dpshealers can do the same, Magus can do the same, yet the difference is the amount of engages and escapes tied to it. Personally I don't fight any solo Chosen/KOTBS/IB because I do negative dmg to them, the solution? Just walk away! Try avoiding a WE jumping at you over and over.
Regular dps WE/WH are at least somewhat fair because they actually CAN die and do take damage as much as they do damage themselves, it's the frustration and zero counterplay situation of fighting those defensive builds you cannot avoid because of all the gapclosers they now have.

[Shogun4138]

"choose your fights"

Nobody except for WE/WH can effectively choose their fights the way you suggest. You just stealth or stagger > stealth. It comes back to how slippery the classes are and how they can get away from being caught/bad matchups in a way every other class can only dream of. IF a stealther never wants to die they absolutely have the toolkit to achieve that because they have the luxury of being able to pick every single fight, this luxury has to be considered when balancing the class. You cannot have the superpower of invisibility and then be as strong, or stronger, than other classes outside of it as well - that's not how game balancing works.
No idea why for some it's so hard to see that a class which has the following is quite literally overtuned:
1) long duration stealth
2) can build unbelievably tanky while still doing threatening!!! damage
3) burst dmg but also armor ignoring abilities, in case of WE fully focusing on magical damage so they can ignore WS as a stat entirely opening up even more options for defense
4) 6s stagger to avoid a fight after being caught
6) 2x slowing gapcloser in a game where only 3 classes (though 2 are locked behind conditions) even have one so you can't even disengage

Genuinely, where's the downside? The weakness? Not being literally invincible? Stealth having 30s cd? The patience needed to sit at an empty BO for a while? Tanks/Dps healers have no escapes, pet classes terrible unreliable AI to deal with, rangedps being squishy, what's WE downside at this point?

The only arguments in here are just "oh but they can die", "skill issue" and "it's not as easy as you think" meanwhile every def WE killboard shows like 18k+ dmg taken while they has to do nothing but press 3 buttons and autowin due to tankiness/regen outlasting while dots tick. Tanks can do the same, mdps can do the same, dpshealers can do the same, Magus can do the same, yet the difference is the amount of engages and escapes tied to it. Personally I don't fight any solo Chosen/KOTBS/IB because I do negative dmg to them, the solution? Just walk away! Try avoiding a WE jumping at you over and over.
Regular dps WE/WH are at least somewhat fair because they actually CAN die and do take damage as much as they do damage themselves, it's the frustration and zero counterplay situation of fighting those defensive builds you cannot avoid because of all the gapclosers they now have.

If you played a WE, you'd know how much they die. Why do ya think they changed banner rez to 10 minutes? Because WEs and WHs die a lot.

Unfortunately none of the people complaining know how to utilize their cc to win. There are some great players who utilize it to control a fight or get out.. I cant count the times I have people dump all their cc at once. Absolutely gold comedy. Literally I'll have both up on cctv. It is funny like your first move was to hit me with both of your cc. Now you have none and when you blow your cc and die, ya run to the forums crying. That's a general account of most players.

If the killboard showed deaths. You would all be typing that WEs and WHs need a buff

[Avanos]

Spoiler:

OMG. “My OP class can’t deal with the other grossly overpowered class in the game. QQ”

At least, by your own admission, there aren’t that many DPS RPs, whilst the lake is swarming with WEs. Even worse, these pr0 solo players rarely play alone, as it’s common to be unstealthed on by multiple WEs, and I’m sure it’s the same with WHs.

I love how WEs call it “strategy” whilst they struggle with one class.

Thanks for proving my point.

I mentioned DPS RP specifically because it's one of the few matchups my build struggles with.

My response wasn't "nerf DPS RP."

My response was "adapt, choose your fights, and play around the matchup."

If more people approached WE/WH/WL/AM/ETC the same way instead of immediately demanding changes, we'd probably have fewer balance threads.

Thanks for proving my point as well.

It’s easy to adapt when you play one of the few OP classes. It’s like billionaires saying young people should eat less avocado toast.

Oh and your response wasn’t “nerf DPS RP”? …is this you:

Remove ability to swap between heal and dps spec on the fly.

Oh look, you want to nerf SW as well:

KD is fine as it is..
IMO the perm move speed buff from guerilla tactics does need a slight nerf though.. Perhaps have it trigger on a 10-15 second cooldown instead of 5 sec.

How about that adapt mentality of yours? At least you score high on hypocrisy.

So your big gotcha is that over multiple years I've occasionally suggested balance changes?

Congratulations, you've successfully discovered that I participate in balance discussions on a balance forum.

The question isn't whether balance changes should ever happen.

The question is whether every time someone loses a matchup the answer is immediately "nerf it."

In the example you quoted, my answer was literally the opposite:

"Adapt your playstyle."

Which is especially relevant considering we're currently in a thread called "Nerf WE/WH into the ground."

I openly acknowledged a matchup my build struggles with and my conclusion wasn't "nerf DPS RP into the ground." It was "adapt, choose your fights, and play around the matchup."

You spent more effort digging through years of my post history than addressing that argument.

Ironically, the fact that you had to leave the actual discussion and go archaeology through old posts suggests you couldn't find much wrong with the point being made here.