Balancing Order Tanks

[wargrimnir]

Stat steal can proc more stat buff debuff depending on target/s .

Again 7 buff/debuff vs 3 of course you have a trade off you think would be nice buff / debuff 7 stats with 1 passive.

buff???? They are not more effective than a war bellow that's the reason why they gave chosen 3 auras because before it only buffed 1 stat while bo buffed 7 lol

Appart that pftg is alredy nerfed so it's useles talk about that but lol did war bellow consume ap just for being active ?? No of course it dosent.
Pftg allow you to
Perma hold the line or either mitigate a super punt and what 2 counter to the mpst stupid things in game .... Magic bomb spam and cheest let's remove someone from the game for x sec while we gangbang the one he should def; or also keep up with the shammy kitte since order have 2rkd 1 OP moral root ; im interested too in the definition of skill since for me chosen/kobs should loose a so good punt but ehi that'me vs all the world against and when ppl refer to meccanic and also bring in utility i also like to remember that what make ch/kobs op are not their meccanic wich a bo/sm cover for 2/3 with stat steal lol but tbeir individual class tools which in fact as alredy being nerfed ( not enough on kobs) and bad for me since some stuff are different between chosen and kobs and in fact the complete perfect nerf hitted more chosen as always ...

Pftg is an exemple , kobs don't give a **** to that nerf. Chosen does.

- The tactic "Power From The Gods" is now implemented as +15 AP Regen Per Second (as from items, so it is blocked when the player is not naturally regenerating AP)
^ Aw man, what a terrible tactic. That's like having every piece of my gear having +AP on it, what crap, so useless, much kappa.

KoBS have the exact same implementation, clearly it favors them. y u no nerf kobs moar. (notes three KoBS tactics are also nerfed from live).

War Bellow requires you to use skills to activate. Does using skills consume AP?
War Bellow does not steal all 7 stats at a time, you need to be lucky. I would expect on average you'll get 3-4 stolen if you have a nice target rich environment that your AoE (if it procs bellows in AoE, dunno) can hit.

All tanks have CC. What makes the Chosen require skill to effectively play that other tanks do not have?
Using abilities correctly that all tanks have certainly doesn't apply.

[blaqwar]

Tesq if you're claiming that the SM/BO mechanic isn't limiting the career at all then you're very short-sighted. Even with the stance change ability (which has a 5 sec CD) you will never be able to use all abilities whenever you want.

I'm not saying the mechanic isn't a boon at the same time and that the careers are weak, but I am claiming that the SM/BO mechanic requires more forethought and strategic planning (it's not rocket science, mind you) than the current implementation of the Chosen/KotBS one.

Also you claim that SMs not having CDs on their abilities is a big bonus. It really isn't because it comes with a downside, which is very short duration compared to similar abilities on other tanks. Eagle's Flight; 5 sec, Dragon's Talon; 4 sec, Dazzling Strike; 5 sec. The only semi powerful ability with no CD and decent duration is Blurring Shock and it requires 1 GCD + stance shift CD. Every other SM ability has a cooldown proportionate to the effect. All of these result in SMs having a very difficult time keeping all of their powerful buffs/debuffs up while Chosen/KotBS don't have those issues, eventhough their toolkit is similarly powerful.

To be honest I'd rather have a cooldown on those abilities and have the durations matched their counterparts, it makes much more sense and it would streamline SM rotations/ability usages/dance.

Edit: Looking at the BO abilities they don't seem to have quite the same issues with buff/debuff uptime. If their abilities are as powerful as the SM tools is debatable however and possibly offtopic so not opening that can of worms.

[Sigimund]

I'd happily take CDs on EF and DT if the duration was high enough for me to use any other mid/high balance attacks while maintaining those effects.

[GodlessCrom]

Chosen is harder to play than Ironbreaker, because power from the gods doesn't let me have perma-hold the line and a Witch Hunter parried my Blast Wave once, maybe. Also a 25% proc stat steal is better than 100% uptime auras

Today I learned.

Come on dude. I play a Chosen and an Ironbreaker, and you can't pretend Chosen isn't easier to play. I don't know if they need to be nerfed, but they need a more challenging mechanic. For the sake of fun, if anything else, because it gets kind of boring playing one.

[footpatrol2]

So the class mechanic of knights and chosen's is your suppose to twist your aura's given the situation your in.

How many actually do this? With the way that RoR has allowed aura's to be managed they are a fire and forget. I seriously doubt many knights or chosen's twist their aura's to the given situation while in combat for max effectiveness. They just set up the rock solid 3 aura's and completely forget about the aura mechanic. Meaning they are not playing their class to its max effectiveness and making full use of their mechanic. Knights and chosen's are dumb complicated if your trying to play at max effectiveness and twisting in your situational aura's due to the delay nature of twisting. You have to guess the situation your going to be in and hope you twisted correctly to gain a larger effect because you can't instantly switch aura's. Most players are just lazy and don't twist in their situational aura's.

You have 3 aura's that are rock solid, Strength, Toughness, Resists. The 3 rock solid aura's are located in completely different tree's. You can't get max affect off your 3 desirable rock solid aura's ever. Meaning you can't stat steal 120 buff/debuff ever in all 3 highly desired aura's. You can gut your build and get 2 of those aura's to near max effectiveness while neglecting one but while doing so your completely gutting your build.

You have 3 aura's that are tied too the spec'able rock solid aura's that are highly situational and gain in effectiveness like the 3 rock solid aura's the more you spec into it.

The spec'able 3 aura's don't require you to have additional points placed into the tree to have maximum effectiveness. This covers all 9 of the aura's.

Arguments on the stat steal or resist buff/debuff on not going full 15 point given a specific tree is that it is just good enough. At least thats the perception. Then lets make it not good enough so the other aura's can gain more favor.

I'm going to provide a suggestion. Please know that I don't think chosen's and knights need a dramatic change. I favor Minor tweaks/baby steps. Things that are not shocking.

Lower the base stat steal/resist steal from spec's that don't have any points in it. Meaning if a chosen has zero points placed into dread (str) and he is max corruption (toughness) his dread aura is garbage. Right now a max 15 point corruption chosen with zero points in dread has a stat steal of 75 buff/debuff. Lower the base stat steal and increase the gain of each spec point to reach 120.

Example: A chosen with zero dread points in his spec steals say 30 strength and buff's 30 strength for his group. If a chosen was full 15 point dread then it would be 120 strength buff/debuff. To have this effect each spec point would have to have a higher gain then it currently is. Currently each spec point is worth 3 points of strength or toughness. Make it so each spec point is worth say 6 and then lower the base stat steal component.

Currently its
3 x 15 = 45 + base 75 = 120
My suggestion
6 x 15 = 90 + base 30 = 120.

If you want to go extreme make it so each spec point provides 8 and the base stat steal is zero. Meaning if you have zero points into dread your strength aura is zero.

Extreme suggestion
15 x 8 = 120 + base 0 = 120

You could either apply the suggestion I made to the other 6 situational aura's or not as far as scaling. I'd really only make the change to the rock solid 3 aura's (strength, toughness, resists). We want a chosen/knight to not be able to effectively run all 3 rock solid aura's and it be just good enough. We want to encourage twisting in the other situational aura's. If your twisting in the other situational aura's then your using your mechanic and its making your class more complicated. Which is the goal right?

[Arteker616]

Chosen have passive auras while bo/sm have stat steal what's the difference ? You can.use stat steal by using 1 skill if you want....
They have the sane aura type of passive buff just bo/sm have some trade sone contr for some contr but the argument of the chosen meccanic being easy/lazy is a big lie untill bo/sm main buff from t1 as chosen aura is the stat steal

the fact a chosen ktbo can run auras 100% time while bo has to be lucky to critic da biggest and da thoughest maybe? u forgot unless u count dagreenest bo bellows has a 25% chance to proc off.

lets not forget , most bo buffs are useles (bo has 3 armour buffs wich doesnt stack ), while chosen /ktbo can run around with 3 auras with no problem .lets not ignore chosen has more efective cc than bo( single punt versus aoe free cc for everyone ).lets aswell not forget bo has the worst baseline ini of all game tanks .aswell nerfed st(doesnt critic when it should)or a gimped version of loudmouth .

ifu dont count the big brawling ability and his dps as sb the bo isnt as versatile as a chosen or ktbo. aswell unlike the sm our defensive 50% ability reduce our speed rendering useles for kiting unlike the sm one.

[spikespiegel84]

It's pretty simple. Chosen doesn't have the damage output of other tanks, unless specced to mdps which does make him no longer a tank (and a poor dps if not max geared). The cc of chosen have longer cooldown, one of them is valuable only with a tactic slotted in, and most of it are only four (quake sadly included).

For what I can see, the ideas of tanks were pretty clear: chosen: turtle tank, BO: offensive tank. I think something went badly wrong with the water tank in the office when designing Blackguard.

[Arteker616]

It's pretty simple. Chosen doesn't have the damage output of other tanks, unless specced to mdps which does make him no longer a tank (and a poor dps if not max geared). The cc of chosen have longer cooldown, one of them is valuable only with a tactic slotted in, and most of it are only four (quake sadly included).

For what I can see, the ideas of tanks were pretty clear: chosen: turtle tank, BO: offensive tank. I think something went badly wrong with the water tank in the office when designing Blackguard.

ahem the kd on chosen is the same cd as bo and bg. and bg one even needs a block to happen. the cd on aoe root, is the same . the punt same as bg , bo punt is aoe with very short radious . repel needs a tactic to be efective? so does big swing ....

[Tesq]

Stat steal can proc more stat buff debuff depending on target/s .

Again 7 buff/debuff vs 3 of course you have a trade off you think would be nice buff / debuff 7 stats with 1 passive.

buff???? They are not more effective than a war bellow that's the reason why they gave chosen 3 auras because before it only buffed 1 stat while bo buffed 7 lol

Appart that pftg is alredy nerfed so it's useles talk about that but lol did war bellow consume ap just for being active ?? No of course it dosent.
Pftg allow you to
Perma hold the line or either mitigate a super punt and what 2 counter to the mpst stupid things in game .... Magic bomb spam and cheest let's remove someone from the game for x sec while we gangbang the one he should def; or also keep up with the shammy kitte since order have 2rkd 1 OP moral root ; im interested too in the definition of skill since for me chosen/kobs should loose a so good punt but ehi that'me vs all the world against and when ppl refer to meccanic and also bring in utility i also like to remember that what make ch/kobs op are not their meccanic wich a bo/sm cover for 2/3 with stat steal lol but tbeir individual class tools which in fact as alredy being nerfed ( not enough on kobs) and bad for me since some stuff are different between chosen and kobs and in fact the complete perfect nerf hitted more chosen as always ...

Pftg is an exemple , kobs don't give a **** to that nerf. Chosen does.

- The tactic "Power From The Gods" is now implemented as +15 AP Regen Per Second (as from items, so it is blocked when the player is not naturally regenerating AP)
^ Aw man, what a terrible tactic. That's like having every piece of my gear having +AP on it, what crap, so useless, much kappa.

KoBS have the exact same implementation, clearly it favors them. y u no nerf kobs moar. (notes three KoBS tactics are also nerfed from live).

War Bellow requires you to use skills to activate. Does using skills consume AP?
War Bellow does not steal all 7 stats at a time, you need to be lucky. I would expect on average you'll get 3-4 stolen if you have a nice target rich environment that your AoE (if it procs bellows in AoE, dunno) can hit.

All tanks have CC. What makes the Chosen require skill to effectively play that other tanks do not have?
Using abilities correctly that all tanks have certainly doesn't apply.

the claim that bo meccanic requrie ap is wrong because both chosen and Bo play and consume ap for use skill and just that, auras and stat steal dont consume ap on their own.

No kobs dosent care because his armor buff and his regen aura both provide ap regen while chosen dont have those secondary eff nor BG which that armor buff is mirrored with a badder secondary eff. Both can regen ap during flee and while using skill; chosen cant nor cant spam hold the line as before kobs can instead so ye kobs dosen't care about this; with a simple interrupt every 3 sec a you can perma hold the line. Kobs didnb't spec that before and it will not now; chosen done .
It is a terrible tactic on chosen becuase chosen is a hungry tactic classes and so ye it's totally usless use that tactic in place of something else currently if you wanna spam or be offensive is better put quickened discord now or use to counter bomb dmg return stuff instead hold the line.

Nothing require mroe skill to play chosen than a BO is not my assertion , but it's my assettion that nerf chosen/kobs meccanic is not what should happen; other tools should be nerf because 3 aura behaviour exatly the same way of stat steals

-passive
-trade 100% uopdate time with proc 7 buff instead 3
-no ap consume

so wanna nerf chosen/kobs? you're welcome to also nerf stat steal. I have a SM and proc the stat steal is easy very easy; the mroe ppl there is the more it's easier and the less skill you need.
Also as i said 2h SM>>>>>> 2h BG so ye i kinda keep going with my statment nerf BO/KOBS ; rebalance IB/chosen/SM (because they have something that need a bit of rebalancing both in term of usless tactic or a little too good), and buff BG skill economy.

[GodlessCrom]

Why compare 2h Bg to 2h Sm when they aren't mirrors, or even all that similar in function outside of being a mirror?

Also, stat steal isnt a career mechanic, stance switching is. A sword master has a whole bunch of other stuff to do besides waiting for stat steal to proc. A Chosen/knight worries only about the generic tank stuff all tanks do: whom to cc and when, what cc to use, who am i guarding, when do i switch guard, when dk i assist and when do i stop assisting to apply cc/swap guard, etc? Which is all well and good, but all tanks have that to do and then also their career mechanic. Whereas Chosen/knight just plop on their auras and then never worry about them.

So the comparison you're doing would be like saying Black Guard knockdown needs to be nerfed because it's 5 seconds and baseline, whereas as Sm is 3 secs and needs to be specced into. The two aren't comparable in that way, and rely on a different context of abilities and mechanics.

You're completely missing the point, and comparing two things on a premise that does not logically link the two.