Pug Only Scenario

[Scrilian]

Scrilian, you openly state that a huge chunk of playerbase shouldn't have a say on this matter which is wrong by default. You're saying that enforcing a certain playstyle to a vast group of people is okay.

Not going to repeat myself too much, I see it's kinda pointless atm.
I enforce nothing, it was like this on live and now it is here, why should it change to please people that barely play and from what I've gathered know jack-sh*t about why the game is still great the way it is - they just want easy rewards for themselves and themselves alone, engulfed in antisocial alienation like it's the norm never to bond with anyone and never truly become a part of the community.
Why should you get a special treatment in a form of soloQ? Why am I wrong?

[bloodi]

Forming a group and entering a Dungeon/Raid is the easy part. People did (do) it all the time in WoW, even casuals who dislike talking to other people. But if they are not geared, not in TS, don't even know the fights... they will keep wiping and go broke on repairs and eventually disband with ZERO rewards (in fact, they are poorer). Huge difference with joining a serious guild with people who know all the fights and coordinate and explain everything in TS. These guys have no problen farming those raids, even the hardest ones.

Yes: If the pugs cleared the Heroic-mode super-hard 100-man raid, they got the same rewards as the most elite super organized guilds. But this pretty much never happened (at least, before Mysts of Pandaria).

And that is the point, if making a group is so easy, why are then worthy of better rewards?

Hell, in here you are even making a point here of why a pug group should have better rewards than a guild group in Wow and it clearly is not the case.

I disagree. In a Pug vs Pug fight, i'd say your chances of winning are always around 50%. In a Premade vs Premade, it depends on skill level of your enemies. My premade will have 80% chances of winning against XXXX premade, but 30% against YYYY. So what happens if one night i only get fights against YYYY? I will have a harder time in my SC's than any Pugs will have in theirs.

While i agree that a premade vs premade will be harder overall, the point is that is not always harder and not for everyone, raids give better rewards because they are without a shade of a doubt, harder than dungeon content, in every aspect, you can not say the same for a premade queue.

Thats why it was a false equivalence, raids do not give better rewards because they are there to reward organization and all that, they give better rewards because they are harder content.

Is a premade vs premade queue harder? Yes i agree. Is a premade vs premade queue hard enough to warrant better rewards? No way jose.

[Tesq]

this is really to complicated tesq. just let the 6vs6 sc be priorised and with an easy qol fix lets see how experience for solo and group players improved before implementing some very artificial and complicated "stomped by premade" qualifications ...

i do not think is really too much complicated if the number in queue allow it to create it like a rank system which put looser all togheter and give em some break, anyway wasn't that system you mention it not alredy at work? i belived it was alredy that way from a while.

[Tiggo]

this is really to complicated tesq. just let the 6vs6 sc be priorised and with an easy qol fix lets see how experience for solo and group players improved before implementing some very artificial and complicated "stomped by premade" qualifications ...

i do not think is really too much complicated if the number in queue allow it to create it like a rank system which put looser all togheter and give em some break, anyway do that system you mention it not alredy at work? i belived it was alredy that way from a while.

i dont think caledor wood is priorized for solo and 6man groups. at least when we multi queue with 6 man cw never pops. (the question is: is there NO other 6man queueing or does it just not pop cause battle of praq pops with 2 premades and 6 solos on each side etc.)

i yet NEVER had cw pop when queueing solo.

[Penril]

Yes. Raids give better rewards because they are harder content. And the way to clear harder content is to coordinate with your group, learn the fights, and improve your gameplay. So in the end, Raids reward organization. We can agree to disagree on this point though.

I never asked to give more rewards for Premade vs Premade SC. Current system is fine (1 emblem for every 100 points, 1 extra emblem if you win, 6 emblems max per SC). I simply agreed that Pug vs Pug should have less rewards (maybe remove the extra emblem if you win, so the max is 5). Something like that. Reason is that your winning chances in a Pug vs Pug SC are always 50%, while it is variable in a Premade vs Premade. Also, Pug SCs will have significantly shorter wait times than Premade SC (i guess; could be wrong but i doubt it).

However, it is not that important to me tbh. I was just giving my opinion on the matter. I'm fine with getting a Pug-only SC (i Pug as much as i premade, maybe even more). Just make sure that SC is Khaine's Embrace

[Arbich]

I disagree. In a Pug vs Pug fight, i'd say your chances of winning are always around 50%. In a Premade vs Premade, it depends on skill level of your enemies. My premade will have 80% chances of winning against XXXX premade, but 30% against YYYY. So what happens if one night i only get fights against YYYY? I will have a harder time in my SC's than any Pugs will have in theirs.

It always depends on the skill (and the class compilation) of your enemies.
And not all classes are equally strong in 6vs6. So different rewards for premade vs. premade and Pug vs. Pug would be a very bad idea. Or will you say "All classes have the change to get their desired gear faster, if they form a premade. Ah yeah... except of you engis. Sorry guys."

[bloodi]

Yes. Raids give better rewards because they are harder content. And the way to clear harder content is to coordinate with your group, learn the fights, and improve your gameplay. So in the end, Raids reward organization. We can agree to disagree on this point though.

And having hands a mouse and a keyboard, so we can also say that Raids reward organization and having all your limbs and enough income to warrant being able to buy basic periferics.

I never asked to give more rewards for Premade vs Premade SC. Current system is fine (1 emblem for every 100 points, 1 extra emblem if you win, 6 emblems max per SC). I simply agreed that Pug vs Pug should have less rewards (maybe remove the extra emblem if you win, so the max is 5).

It doesnt matter if you ask the ground to be lower or the ceilling to be raised, you want different rewards for each queue, thats what i am against.

We have enough idiots thinking their way to play is the better one or even the only real one, lets not give them more fuel to it.

[Penril]

It always depends on the skill (and the class compilation) of your enemies.
And not all classes are equally strong in 6vs6. So different rewards for premade vs. premade and Pug vs. Pug would be a very bad idea. Or will you say "All classes have the change to get their desired gear faster, if they form a premade. Ah yeah... except of you engis. Sorry guys."

Ok, this is a VERY VALID point. You are correct.

[peterthepan3]

Misconception that premades are made to farm pugs needs to be done away with. Very insulting. Pugs should have their own scenario or two, just with reduced rewards. Would be good.

I'm sorry, I really don't wanna start an argument over this again, but why less rewards? Nobody is entitled to less or more rewards than another person because of their preference on playstyle. I'm genuinely curious as to why you think this.

That's cool man. Most reasons as to why I feel this should be the case have been mentioned: risk vs reward, in a nutshell.
In my opinion a high-caliber prem vs prem will always be more intense than even the very best pug vs pug. Teamspeak, knowledge of enemy group and trying to anticipate and counter, team synergy developed and honed over a long period, will result in intense and testing fights. This pertains to the best 6v6 guilds out there.

i feel pugs should have their own scenarios, but believe they should get slightly less rewards: incentive to get into premades for 6v6, and encourages voice comm coordinated gameplay (as I believe scens should promote)

And re some classes not being viable in 6v6? That is true, but is a separate issue altogether and doesn't negate nor take away from the points that have been made concerning higher caliber pvp/longer queues/people wanting everything for minimum effort.

Bloodi: id appreciate it if you stopped with the indirect personal insults to the premade community. It's tiring.

[Tiggo]

i feel pugs should have their own scenarios, but believe they should get slightly less rewards: incentive to get into premades for 6v6, and encourages voice comm coordinated gameplay (as I believe scens should promote)
.

incentive is a good argument. besides: prem vs. prem mostly ends in VERY less kills, some end 3:1 and less. thus kill quest etc. not fullfilling fast no medaillons no devastator for premades then ^^ and thus they need to farm pugs to get their kills,
so, in conclusion: more rewards for group vs group is a GOOD thing for pugs