Changelog 15/11/16

[Azarael]

As mentioned before regarding indefensibility: every other heal ability in the game goes off when cast. There is no way you can prevent that heal from going off. You can reduce its effect, but it will always cast. The outlook I have on this is that any ability designed to heal must always heal.

That and if you remove the indefensibility, Guard will screw you. While undefendable attacks will never be defended by Guard, strikethrough doesn't matter, and that will lead to Guard dissipating a major portion of the heals, which will increase even more as defense rates rise. Both of these reliability problems screwed the idea of melee healing before.

On Righteousness speed bonus: I don't want any more snares being thrown around, and it is completely unacceptable that Righteousness be an inferior version of Celerity, affecting only the WP, granting the same snare off Judgment only, and modifying Weight of Guilt which can already have its application condition dodged by using Soulfire or theoretically by the snare off Judgment which would be required to catch people anyway.

Other points are under consideration. If anything has to be done, I lean in four directions:

1) Increase backline <-> melee heal cooldown to give more of a window of weakness.
2) Have melee heals affected by outgoing heal debuffs.
3) Modify Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence to affect the defensive target and all allies / groupmates within x feet of them.
4) Tweak AoE detaunt uptime.

[kryss]

Other points are under consideration. If anything has to be done, I lean in four directions:

1) Increase backline <-> melee heal cooldown to give more of a window of weakness.
2) Have melee heals affected by outgoing heal debuffs.
3) Modify Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence to affect the defensive target and all allies / groupmates within x feet of them.
4) Tweak AoE detaunt uptime.

Number 2) would make WH/WE less useless, or even - I don't dare even sayin it - USEFUL. I hope this point goes through, or at least gets implemented in test mode.

[Dabbart]

Am I Missing something? I have a read a few times now there is "nothing one can do about the melee heals"... Detaunt? The heal amount is from damage done and mitigated combined. Detaunt and ignore them, bam. 50% heals. Or am i misunderstanding a part of the change?

Sure. WP/dok can swing at tanks for healing numbers. That's fine. They won't be accomplishing much besides that. And even then, how many of them are going to be solely focusing and sustaining themselves? I like that the full amount is healed regardless of mitigation/absorb.

You wil need different strategies to deal with melee healers than you do with backline healers. I see no need to input outgoing hd on them. They already have CC, snares, detaunts, lack of closers, debuffs etc. the indefensible nature might need some sort of balancing act. But applying a heal debuff to melee heals would be vicious.

In my opinion...

[Azarael]

Detaunt is a partial at the moment, which I'm going to rectify. Detaunting someone or using any other type of damage reduction not in the Tactic class will result in 50% DA/RS healing, but about 80% TE/SR healing because TE and SR have a base component.

And yes, many other strategies exist to deal with melee heals, which is why TE/SR spam was not considered a problem - it was expected that a group would do its best to shut down a WP or DoK with the melee heal prayer on. If anything, the switch interval may be too generous. There should be a choice when punted - blow the switch to backline early and risk being jumped on, or try to run the 12s proc and risk having to switch anyway.

What's compounding this is the ability for groups to run classic and .ex WP and DoK together. The .ex mode will have to be made mandatory for a period so that we know how this will pan out.

[Akalukz]

Other points are under consideration. If anything has to be done, I lean in four directions:

1) Increase backline <-> melee heal cooldown to give more of a window of weakness.
2) Have melee heals affected by outgoing heal debuffs.
3) Modify Sigmar's Radiance and Transfer Essence to affect the defensive target and all allies / groupmates within x feet of them.
4) Tweak AoE detaunt uptime.

Number 2) would make WH/WE less useless, or even - I don't dare even sayin it - USEFUL. I hope this point goes through, or at least gets implemented in test mode.

Why just mele, though if you are going to make life tap heals subject to outgoing heal debuff, why not make it an across the board change? Mele is arguably more risky than ranged lifetaps by its very nature.

[braendir]

Sure I can, I have been playing this for weeks as a pug player, you however cried the minute you saw it having never posted on the boards before.

I can see you have a RR56 WP and a RR55 DoK and I can see you have a book and a chalice equipped even now so it doesnt look like you have "tested" much.

I think it may be time for you to step back from the forums and go and actually get some personal testing done before you come back sprouting off more of this nonsense.

several mistake on you reply
first explain me why what i said is a non sense

secondly
i never said i tested the new change i said i play in PREMADE with the "live stance" against PUG
and wp/dok in "new stance" was not effective maybe you should read better my posts

[Azarael]

So let me get this straight. You refused to unequip your book or chalice, crushed some PUGs with your premade and you are coming back here to use that as an argument against the changes?

And people wonder why I disregard the opinions of people who only play heal DoK/WP.

[Sigimund]

You wil need different strategies to deal with melee healers than you do with backline healers. I see no need to input outgoing hd on them. They already have CC, snares, detaunts, lack of closers, debuffs etc. the indefensible nature might need some sort of balancing act. But applying a heal debuff to melee heals would be vicious.

... As well as interrupts on the channeled heal.

You are exactly right. It is far too early to cry overpowered. This thread is full of knee-jerk. Nobody has had a chance to plan and test proper counters yet. Strategies still need to adjust but they will catch up. Then decide what is overpowered.

[footpatrol2]

I'm not stating that Dok's/WP don't gain a chance on thier attacks being undefendable but 100% undefendable...? I suggested like 50% chance on undefendable which is really just a random number thrown out. Maybe make it 60% or 40% chance undefendable i don't know. High avoidence character's were the bane of lifetap heals because you need to land your attacks to have a effect. That got completely removed with this experimental mode when attacks are 100% undefendable and reduced the reason to bring altering classes to help reduce the avoidence. Off the top of my head, Classes like the engineer/SH/SW with pierce defenses tactic slotted or taking a BG/knight for furious howl/staggering impact abilities. The avoidence decreaser ability warding strike on the dok has become basically meaningless when attacks are 100% undefendable. Warding strike is there to help assist with the avoidence.

Your suppose to take avoidence decreasers with these lifetap heal classes to assist on landing attacks against non tank classes.

I didn't raise a stink on the AM/Shaman's lifetaps on this issue because they only had 20% chance on undefensible attacks which means there is still a role for other classes that help reduce avoidence. 100% undefendable attacks removes this role all together. Absorbs are not really that big of a issue because if your running a assist train the absorbs will likely get plowed through.

Prior to experimental mode you want to take classes that decrease avoidence. Not so you would be targeting tanks but so you can rip through non-tank targets and still heal. High avoidence characters such as tanks should be the bane of all lifetap classes. It should be their weakness. It is their hard counter. Similar to a WL is to a shaman. With 100% undefendable attacks you don't even care about positioning.

There is a lot of inter-class dependance in this game. Your suppose to take classes that help support each other's playstyle and compliment each other. This change removes some of that. If the undefendable attacks were reduced to a percent chance of being undefendable then your not just straight removing a portion of this game and the importance of avoidence decreasers.

[Azarael]

I've repeated myself enough times on why they have undefendable healing attacks. That is a lynchpin of this .ex and it will not change. If you want your avoidance decreaser play, link up with mDPS WP or DoK, they have classic rules.

What will change:

- Devotion Sigmar's Radiance and Vitality Transfer Essence no longer double both the base heal (404 up to 808) and damage components. Instead, they will heal for six times the damage dealt, absorbed and mitigated, with no base component. This will make detaunts as effective against SR and TE as they are against DA and RS. The heal is set at around the 900-1000 mark with the tactic slotted now.

- Challenge now affects melee heals (they were immune to it before.)

The mechanisms for reducing melee heals will be ability and not defense based, so you've got:

Strength debuffs
Detaunt (50%)
Immaculate Defense (75%)
Dragon's Talon / Ya Missed Me (20%)
Challenge (30% if the DoK/WP does not respond and attack the challenging tank)
Distracting Bellow and any other damage reducing effects I missed

All things subject to change as always.