RvR Feedback

[Sedok]

Warband not ZERG (multiple warbands). It's ok to have 1 WB vs 1 WB, its ok to have 1 Premade WB vs 2 PUG WBs, its ok to fight 2 WBs vs 2 WBs, but anything more than 3 WB is pure cluster f*** without any skill/strategy/tactic involved...

The term "zerg" is ambiguous to the point of near meaninglessness, as it can describe any amount of people in a given group from 12 - 100+, the level of organization of said group, and/or what that group is doing (aoe spam, sitting on BOs, etc.). I'd argue the term is improperly used in describing any of the aforementioned criteria, as such things can be named with more concise terms (premade, warforce, bombing, etc.), and instead is better suited to describe the feeling a player gets when he is attacked with overwhelming force and the sense of powerlessness it conveys to them (i.e. "zerged", a verb, not a noun).

Also, this popular sentiment I see thrown around all the time, that warband-play is "mindless"/"low to no skill" rubs me the wrong way. Would you also say that raiding is low-skill? The same concept applies in warband-play; getting 24 guys to operate as an effective fighting force can be frustrating at the best of times, not just in actually playing the game (practicing focus-fire, developing formations, learning volley-fire, etc.), but also in building a culture to ensure that such a force can be fielded in the long-term. This server knows very little of proper warband play, as the meta has been stagnate in lolcharging since its inception; so judging large-scale action on pugs is disingenuous.

I'm not saying that Choppa pull ability should be removed but either tweaked accordingly or other side should have something that allows counter it.

If the Choppa pull is to remain, then we need friendly pulls in this game (akin to the one on the Holy Priest in World of Warcraft) in order for the receiving force to be able to counter it in some way. Right now, the Destro melee train has the ability to defeat Order groups even if the latter has near-perfect positioning. I can't tell you the number of times I'm with a group, Mara pulls someone, they successfully escape and we recover, only to have the Choppa lolpull one-two more people and we wipe because we spent the cooldowns/morales saving the first guy. It can be cast on the move (rendering its range effectively moot), its on a class already a staple of their melee train, its AoE and pulls multiple people, and it doesn't even need to be used to its full effect to be extremely efficient (1 pull is more than enough).

My idea about RvR in WAR is something like 6/12 man groups fighting for BOs while bigger groups / Warbands fights on Keep (even if both doors went down, you still want to have some action spread around RvR lake not only on 1 choke point).

Everyone has a different conception of what "RvR" is supposed to be; some think they should be able to solo/duo-roam to their heart's content, others think anything less than a 24-man force and you might as well be playing WoW's arenas. Unfortunately, it seems like the solution Mythic came up with was trying to find compromise, instead of sticking with a singular vision; so we ended up with this RvR system halfway between DAoC and WoW.

[lefze]

I'm not saying that Choppa pull ability should be removed but either tweaked accordingly or other side should have something that allows counter it.

If the Choppa pull is to remain, then we need friendly pulls in this game (akin to the one on the Holy Priest in World of Warcraft) in order for the receiving force to be able to counter it in some way. Right now, the Destro melee train has the ability to defeat Order groups even if the latter has near-perfect positioning. I can't tell you the number of times I'm with a group, Mara pulls someone, they successfully escape and we recover, only to have the Choppa lolpull one-two more people and we wipe because we spent the cooldowns/morales saving the first guy. It can be cast on the move (rendering its range effectively moot), its on a class already a staple of their melee train, its AoE and pulls multiple people, and it doesn't even need to be used to its full effect to be extremely efficient (1 pull is more than enough).

To be quite honest, choppa isn't really worthy of a slot in a bomb warband. The only value it has is a retarded pull, and any choppa beyond the first one is just plain stupid to allow in the warband. Just imagine the devastating effects Dessie warbands would have if they used the actually good mdps they have.

[Xergon]

even here i cant completely agree that Order has any bigger advantage than Destro RangeDPS

Because most order play bad BWs or useless classes in orvr. You can't expect to have 1 BW, 1 sniper engy, 2 WHs, 3 WLs, and 3 SWs in your warband and go up against a somewhat competent destro warband with that. You'll get obliterated by the greenskin kite squad, which will control all of your movements with no-immunity sticky feetz and squig m2. You'll also get obliterated by an 8 tank warband because all of your single target damage will be useless.

So lets balance all classes to be useful for WBs then ? Current state of game for RvR is AoE and most of PUG WB leader focus on that only. When good PUG WB leaders (ex. Erihon - bow to him) starts making WBs they only call for AoE and on Order side that would be preferably Melee AoE BWs and AoE Slayers thats basically all, very rarely there is some AoE WLs or even ENG's with Magnet, (AoE SWs i can count on fingers of one hand from whole server pop). I dont think we want to have situation when Leaders force players to play only that certain classes... When i'm leading WBs i dont do that, i accept anyone so they can enjoy beauty of RvR and trying to help them understand whats their class can provide for WB and use that as advantage.

I may be wrong with statistics here but im pretty sure its safe to say that basically 90% of WLs, WHs or SWs play solo/roam style because that what these classes do best. About WH ? I think me and Kriser are/were only WHs that play/played AoE spec for WBs...

It's not secret that Order lack of Tanks, and where there is no Tanks there is no Front line, thats the reason why i basically never hold any BO or position on map, only thing i can do is to outmaneuver my enemy with proper flank (learned a lot from Kriser - hope hes gonna come back). Many many times when Order managed to wins front line fights was basically when premade WBs like ZERG, CTNK or TUP eats main Destro force on face so PUG WBs can flank them, or other way around when PUG got eaten by Destro so premade WBs could flank them.

Other thing to touch is AMs numbers vs Shamman's numbers, Shamman AoE slows are pure pain in ass if it comes to fight/pursuit Destro forces, there is never similar numbers of AMs on Order side to compare it and even when they are there, they dont use it (some AMs i did speak to says that it doesn't work...). Destro 70% of times easily kites any Order numbers with these Sham's slows, where Order dont kite anything... This is crucial for battles on some maps (my fav Praag or BC for example). I keep saying in chat that M1 root and WLs pounce/fetch are only way to kill Shammans so ppl actually skill it and use properly.

You want to break through a destro funnel? 8 tanks guarding 6 BW + 2 SL: BW build to m2 (with tactic takes 15s tops) and drop R&D on the frontline while SL pop Rampage to clean up anything that lived. Goodbye frontline. Hello zealots. PUG Order's DPS problem is that everyone wants to play a dps class that doesn't fit with the composition or they're bad at dps. You can be a good WH and excel in premade bands that have a lax composition (in NA at least.. with 1/4 the pop of EU). You can contribute as a SW if you're running supportive tactics and focusing key targets. But those good players are so few and far between in the PUG environment, and some piece of the puzzle is always missing (whether it be you have 2 tanks for 24 people or 1 heal per group).

I dont have problems breaking through Destro funnel, i have problem defending against Destro Melee Pull Train charge.
It's true miracle if i manage to force my WB to stay and hold ground and dont run when they see charging Destro beocuse thats what happen most of time with Order PUG. Believe me i have to spam milion times in chat "STAY WITH ME / HOLD" so they listen, and these are some good fights when it happens (thanks for those who always follow and stay to death).

About SWs support in WB, yes they can be very powerful as i learned a lot from Lefzee but that works mostly in premade WBs, ive been in CNTK WB as AoE SW and i know how it works, but in PUG reality its super hard to execute properly.

To be quite honest, choppa isn't really worthy of a slot in a bomb warband. The only value it has is a retarded pull, and any choppa beyond the first one is just plain stupid to allow in the warband. Just imagine the devastating effects Dessie warbands would have if they used the actually good mdps they have.

Yes, dmg is awful but Pull as form of CC is annoying enough to destroy any PUG WB.

[dansari]

All classes don't need to be at BW-level for warbands. If people have specific things they'd like to see done to make classes more viable for RVR, we can discuss those in the proper channel. You would be wrong to assume WLs, WHs, or SWs don't join warbands. I'm just keeping it real with you when I say that those high single target burst classes aren't going to help you win PUG battles. We've run WL/WH/SW in the past in an actual premade band during NA and it hurt. We couldn't kill anything. But, recently we've had success running some of those classes in 12mans, which they're more designed for.

Re: AM v Sham, I won't really get into my thoughts here, but I know. AM is less viable in RVR because of other shortcomings the class has that Shaman does better (such as mobility, mobile healing, and incoming damage reduction). Peter and I have talked a little bit about it, and ultimately I'd move proposals for AM that I thought might help the class perform better in RVR. That's what the balance forums are for though.

[lefze]

All classes don't need to be at BW-level for warbands. If people have specific things they'd like to see done to make classes more viable for RVR, we can discuss those in the proper channel. You would be wrong to assume WLs, WHs, or SWs don't join warbands. I'm just keeping it real with you when I say that those high single target burst classes aren't going to help you win PUG battles. We've run WL/WH/SW in the past in an actual premade band during NA and it hurt. We couldn't kill anything. But, recently we've had success running some of those classes in 12mans, which they're more designed for.

Re: AM v Sham, I won't really get into my thoughts here, but I know. AM is less available in RVR because of other shortcomings the class has that Shaman does better. Peter and I have talked a little bit about it, and ultimately I'd move proposals for AM that I thought might help the class perform better in RVR. That's what the balance forums are for though.

BW isn't perfect either just btw. And putting SW into the same sentence as WL/WH in this context seems kinda weird to me, it's a good class for very specific reasons even when not playing buffbot, mainly 65ft effective range vs 25-30ish ft gives it certain benefits slayer lacks completely, and BW gets only in a gimped form after gimping the rest of their kit. Same goes for engy, kinda, but SW is just too mobile to be comparable.

As for the AM part at the end, make AM aoe drain undefendable, nerf zealot ritual so drain(s) are even noticeable (someone, go make proposals plz, https://youtu.be/lBuO0tzFOJ0)

[dansari]

Sure, but BW/SL is much better than any other dps order has in regard to WB play. Sure, SW is better than WH/WL but it's still mostly single target unless you're running LA for the Leading Shots + Pierce Defense buffs

[Xergon]

All classes don't need to be at BW-level for warbands. If people have specific things they'd like to see done to make classes more viable for RVR, we can discuss those in the proper channel. You would be wrong to assume WLs, WHs, or SWs don't join warbands. I'm just keeping it real with you when I say that those high single target burst classes aren't going to help you win PUG battles. We've run WL/WH/SW in the past in an actual premade band during NA and it hurt. We couldn't kill anything. But, recently we've had success running some of those classes in 12mans, which they're more designed for.

Re: AM v Sham, I won't really get into my thoughts here, but I know. AM is less viable in RVR because of other shortcomings the class has that Shaman does better (such as mobility, mobile healing, and incoming damage reduction). Peter and I have talked a little bit about it, and ultimately I'd move proposals for AM that I thought might help the class perform better in RVR. That's what the balance forums are for though.

Ok, sorry for making statements about balance in wrong section, it just came to me while writing post so i had to write it down before i forget .

I never said WLs WHs dont join warbands, if there is open WB they will join because no premade WB wants them , also i agree that other classes shouldn't be at similar level AoE power to BWs in fact as playing AoE WHs/SWs my self i think they are usable atm, maybe not better but definitely they are not useless.

[dansari]

Ok, sorry for making statements about balance in wrong section, it just came to me while writing post so i had to write it down before i forget .

I never said WLs WHs SWs dont join warbands, if there is open WB they will join because no premade WB wants them , also i agree that other classes shouldn't be at similar level AoE power to BWs in fact as playing AoE WHs/SWs my self i think they are usable atm, maybe not better but definitely they are not useless.

Oh I wasn't really trying to shame you for giving your opinion, but there are balance forums for a reason

Yeah, to me "useless" and "not the meta" are kinda interchangeable when it comes to warbands.. what if you don't have 5 BWs to fill in? Well, yeah, you're gonna take some SWs and a WL every now and then. They aren't useless but a BW, in that environment, will normally give you exponential returns over most other DPS besides SL.

[lefze]

Sure, but BW/SL is much better than any other dps order has in regard to WB play. Sure, SW is better than WH/WL but it's still mostly single target unless you're running LA for the Leading Shots + Pierce Defense buffs

That's where most people are kinda wrong, in the uberzerg it might fade hard at times but so does the other classes, but it really excels at high pressure over extended, mobile fights, as quite often the other dps classes simply don't have the range to finish people off, SW is just a really nice vacuum cleaner for oRvR. The damage is no joke either if you can manage the feat of staying in 20ft of a hostile target at all times, and manage to use barrage for that sweet burst at the right times. Sadly FM is kind of a must for reliability, but it's still not as bad as people think it is, granted you actually play it right.

[dansari]

Sure, but BW/SL is much better than any other dps order has in regard to WB play. Sure, SW is better than WH/WL but it's still mostly single target unless you're running LA for the Leading Shots + Pierce Defense buffs

That's where most people are kinda wrong, in the uberzerg it might fade hard at times but so does the other classes, but it really excels at high pressure over extended, mobile fights, as quite often the other dps classes simply don't have the range to finish people off, SW is just a really nice vacuum cleaner for oRvR. The damage is no joke either if you can manage the feat of staying in 20ft of a hostile target at all times, and manage to use barrage for that sweet burst at the right times. Sadly FM is kind of a must for reliability, but it's still not as bad as people think it is, granted you actually play it right.

This might just be the difference in NA v EU -- Skirmish SW doesn't have much of a frontline to get lost in during NA, and staying within 20ft for No Respite/Expert Skirm boost is unlikely given, if you're chasing, you'll have 2-5 sticky feetz layered in front of you that you have no counterplay towards.