[SUGGESTION] Magus/Engi Changes for the interim...

[peterthepan3]

The change should apply to gunblast/flicking red fire as well as it would only be used when the Magus/Engi is going to play Havoc/Rifleman - aka long-range single target DPS. Even then, you have to be stationary to use it, it will do less damage than a 100 DM doombolt/fireball, and you won't have mobility.

I'd say apply it to both sets of skills, and if needsbe tone it (but I am 99% sure this won't turn out to be the case, and it will simply increase our ST DPS to a powerful but not OP level)

=D

[Morf]

The change should apply to gunblast/flicking red fire as well as it would only be used when the Magus/Engi is going to play Havoc/Rifleman - aka long-range single target DPS. Even then, you have to be stationary to use it, it will do less damage than a 100 DM doombolt/fireball, and you won't have mobility.

I'd say apply it to both sets of skills, and if needsbe tone it (but I am 99% sure this won't turn out to be the case, and it will simply increase our ST DPS to a powerful but not OP level)

=D

Yea i can understand that and i make you right but i just dont like the idea of being able to easily burst someone will little to no effort, button 1, button 2 target has 50% hp or 20% hp and as gunblast/flickering red fire have no cooldown they are very spamable even tho they have a cast time, remember mass rvr game so at times you wont see the person building up casts to detaunt, los, avoid being heavily CC etc.
I think its fair to have 2 skills affected by the proposed tactic but after further thought maybe having it affect baleful transmogrification and incendiary rounds or hip shot and surging violet fire, similar to how EA tactic works.

[TenTonHammer]

Yea i can understand that and i make you right but i just dont like the idea of being able to easily burst someone will little to no effort, button 1, button 2 target has 50% hp or 20% hp and as gunblast/flickering red fire have no cooldown they are very spamable even tho they have a cast time, remember mass rvr game so at times you wont see the person building up casts to detaunt, los, avoid being heavily CC etc.
I think its fair to have 2 skills affected by the proposed tactic but after further thought maybe having it affect baleful transmogrification and incendiary rounds or hip shot and surging violet fire, similar to how EA tactic works.

If we disscuss large scale then all balance kinda goes out the window when youve got 1 or more wbs on each side dukeing it out. We should keep balance disscussions to the small scale rvr view point and in that focuse making it for FRF and gun blast dosnt seem that bad

[peterthepan3]

Why is it that other classes have enjoyed such options for years, and the moment the Magus/Engi has an opportunity to MAYBE deal some comparable burst damage people are thinking 'I'm not so sure this is a good idea'.

The only way to find out is to test, and attributing the ignore resist option on dots will not amount to anything against people who know how to cleanse.

Sorcerers, Bright Wizards and Shadow Warriors have enjoyed this luxury for ages, I think it's only fair that the Magus/Engi get a shot at being formidable ST DPS.

[Genisaurus]

So we've got:

Snipe/Bolt of Change to 5s CD
Hollow Points / Changer's Blessing to 50% armor/resist ignore on Snipe/Gun Blast and Bolt of Change/Flickering Red Fire
Mine stagger to 5s

Any issues with those? If you think Snipe and Bolt of Change become too strong, just move them to the 13 pt slots.

I'm hesitant to make any changes like this to any class at this point in time, for the sole reason that any change we make now will be harder to take off the table if we want to make a more substantial change later. For example, adding armor pen to a few abilities in a tactic might help, but it would be a bigger help to add armor penetration as an innate property of rifles. Yet if we change a tactic to improve a few abilities, we will have a hard time reverting it to do more good in the future.

Additionally, 50% armor ignore and 50% resist ignore are not equivalent - for most classes, ignoring 50% of their armor in T4 will leave them with 40% mitigation left, and that's where resists start. Magus and Engis already have a lot of solid tactic choices, and addressing their damage by giving them another good tactic isn't going to help - they're just going to have to give up another tactic, which is ultimately just a power exchange, not a buff.

We keep telling people to wait on balance changes, and it's only partially because we don't know how a change now will affect the gameplay in T4. It's also because settling for little changes prevents us from looking at the class as a whole, and the mechanics behind them that need fixing.

Cooldown reductions are fine I suppose, as is a reduction to stagger duration. Those are things people wouldn't mind giving up later for other changes they might want more.

[bloodi]

We keep telling people to wait on balance changes, and it's only partially because we don't know how a change now will affect the gameplay in T4. It's also because settling for little changes prevents us from looking at the class as a whole, and the mechanics behind them that need fixing.

.

But what is there to look of Engi/magus?

We know their issues, we already pointed them out in the thread, those fixes are a bandaid to help with such issues and also a test to see if they are too few, too much or whatever will it be.

T4 only makes it worse for them, they do not get any better, just worse.

Plus this change is mostly directed at the single target tree, because imo its the only one that can be worked around without reworking much deeper issues.

[TenTonHammer]

you cant put something like base armor pen/ignore attibute to all rifles in my opinion as that would cause too many problems in lower tiers with WS pen + turrent armor debuff which would make engies even stronger in lower tiers

i much prefer the solution here

[Renork]

Although I appreciate the thread Peterpan....this is exactly why the magus/eng classes did not get looked at until the very end. You will ALWAYS find opposition, it doesn't matter what game you play. The moment another player realizes a class may become a threat to their class, they will cry scream and whine and nothing gets done. I doubt these two classes will be touched, we have way too many cry babies here. But hey, let's leave idiotic festerbomb in the game.


Edit: Just for kicks, I changed to Havoc (21% crit, 830 int with pot). What a joke :^) I quickly went back to change and will rely on people with their graphic effects set to off for kills.

PS rejoice, rift is not pulling people through the doors anymore.

[Azarael]

We keep telling people to wait on balance changes, and it's only partially because we don't know how a change now will affect the gameplay in T4. It's also because settling for little changes prevents us from looking at the class as a whole, and the mechanics behind them that need fixing.

Cooldown reductions are fine I suppose, as is a reduction to stagger duration. Those are things people wouldn't mind giving up later for other changes they might want more.

Okay, so drop the tactic change. I broadly agree; I wouldn't shed a tear if armor stacking were removed from the game instead, with a nerf to the offensive potential if required. We're considering now 5s CD on BoC and Snipe, and 5s stagger from mines and daemons.

[peterthepan3]

Even though I'm 100% sure that the tactic change pertaining to these weak classes would not affect gameplay whatsoever in the grand scheme of things; I'm happy that options are being discussed, and appreciate it. Thank you all.