[Guard Rework] A suggestion to better balance RvR and SCs.

[Luicetarro]

Look around at all the other games... They all have adopted this kind of "hybrid" rolls that allow classes to do both - because its FUN. Some people will say they like playing support classes, great! Stick to your pure roll. However almost EVERYONE I have known that plays support, gets bored and wants to roll a DPS alt to kill people...

They developed DD-hybrids, because it's casual (and enabling support-classes to lvl on their own - casual as well).
And -face it - ppl are getting more and more casual.

'Back then' (god, that does sound so old) ppl were having fun with games for a long, long time. Then more games were available all the time and it changed. Ppl wanted to have new games, faster, more exiting, more rewarding than before.
Heck, Shooter with Aim-assist, MMOs with Autobot, Racinggames with steering-assist.

Do you want to go there, because random ppl aren't actually interrested to learn something about the basics of the game?

I see Slayer jumping into the middle of a wb, AoEing. They drop like flies, yelling at the healer, at the tanks.
Squishy 2h/str/FO-Tanks, rushing into the backline of the enemy, getting snared, disabled, kded, killed - without scoring a single hit.
BWs, just AoEing all the time, not moving a single step and blaming everyone else if they get rushed and ganked - because they didn't pay attention to the moving frontline.
You know the deal, you know it all by yourself.

You just can't make this game 'intuitive' for everyone, while rewarding the ones, that actually 'l2p'. There are preinstalled addons, that will make you SEE that you're (not) in range of the guarded target. Make them use it. If they don't want to stick in guardrange, if they want to see high numbers, they shouldn't play tank in the first place. They did follow a guide, that promoted 'KOTBS are imba. High survability, high dmg!!' for example.
Or why do you think, the internet is full of 'What is the BEST class for PVP/RVR???????'-topics.

You can't teach them all, you can't force them. Nor should you, since you want them to play as they will have most of the fun.
There actually are things preinstalled, still they don't use it. They just don't want to learn. And 'balancing' the game towards the ones, that hop on, yell, cry and blame others for letting them die, without them beeing heroes, istn't a great way to improve a game.

That's why I say, let them get slaughtered. You will always have a mass of ppl, that will click buttons blindly, blame everyone else and leave again, only enjoying the game, if others will do the rest of the job.

Your idea to give a tank bonus-dmg if he does stay within guard-range will do one thing to the kind of population you're talking about (the ones, only wanting to see big numbers). 'Ey! Stick with ME, so I will do MORE DMG!!! OKAY?????'.
Thy won't learn 'Hey, I'm helping my mates'. They'll learn 'Ey, this will get me more dmg!!'.


As sidenote, we don't roll PUGs. If we're able to form a guild-party, we're usually guarding BOs, postern, cutting off resupplies, or ambush wbs to spread havoc, enabling others to do some real damage.
Never judge someone too fast, only by a few written words.

[bloodi]

Several games with far more ressources already accepted the existance of an "elo-hell", why cant we?

I bet the fact that there is no mmr or elo or any kind has something to do with it.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

Several games with far more ressources already accepted the existance of an "elo-hell", why cant we?

I bet the fact that there is no mmr or elo or any kind has something to do with it.

I think you didnt understand what I said.

[bloodi]

I think you didnt understand what I said.

I think you never understand what you say either, you just say it and hope.

[Luicetarro]

Could we at least pretend, we're going to be polite?
Take it to PMs, guys. I really don't want to see another Topic getting derailed, because of such things.

[DefinitelyNotWingz]

I am using "elo hell" to describe the state of pug scs and compare it to other games (that have elo), where the mindset is similar.

[urururu]

No.

[Eathisword]

Spoiler:

Sounds just like me :p

I agree with Tankbeardz though. Silly idea. In premades, your dps knows what he's doing, so tank follows him.

Just reverse the logic.

In pug scens... you are the good dps... Ask for guard. If the tank is out of guard range : RUN to him. And then FOLLOW the tank. Assist him. Easiest way to go, make him be better by being an awesome dps with some awareness When he sees how awesome guard is, learn the range, etc. he can better himself because of you !

To conclude, (imagine John Oliver's voice...) leave me my freedom to be a bad tank ! Tanks are people too ! Hear me ? Tanks are people. They have the right to choose... #prochoice4life #focusoffenseftw

Oh boy this is wrong on so many levels. Dont forget that you are still tank and can perform that role good with 2h. Goin glass cannon, useing aoe aura or focused offense is viable when you premade with friend for lols, going pug with this crap is hurting your team and you wont even use full potential of dps spec.

Every tanks PRIMARY role is to guard, that includes 2h tanks. I main 2h kotbs and first thing to do on joing scen is looking for good mdps to guard. When fight occurs you dont just assist bot or expect him to be same, you need to switch guards depending on situation, use your utility to help group, when heal is in trouble you rush to him etc.

Guys, people who top dmg charts on tanks are most likely douches. Seen that been there, i also used to be fixed on doing numbers but come on, you should grow up from this and use your class to full potential: guarding every team member when necessary, adding cc and utility to control fight, be able to push forward and sustain considerable damage. Your last thing to do is to assist melee or go alone in rampage.

PS. Dont forget that heal casted on 2h tank is heal that potentialy could be casted on someone more squishy. Dont be duches.

EDIT: On second tought, it was only irony with dps following tank, wasnt it?

You got it #sarcasm. But I was half serious about the dps following the tank. When you are in a pug scen and a tank is guarding you, you have 2 options : do your thing and get mad cause he's a bad tank that don't guard properly... Or you can make the extra effort to actually try to stay close to him and enjoy the fight a bit.

Then ya, you can pm him... tell him GG. Ask if he'S new, if he knows guard range, if he like more tanking or doing damage, etc. To me this is a much better solution then raging in chat and asking for revamp of an ability that works prefectly fine as it is.

[th3gatekeeper]

Do you want to go there, because random ppl aren't actually interrested to learn something about the basics of the game?

Im not saying take it THAT far... This is by no means going full casual. The game we have now has a pretty high skill cap with more buttons to press than any game I have played in a LONG time. Most games seem to be trying to make it console friendly too which by definition means less and less buttons. WAR/RoR would never would on an Xbox or PS. Anyways, to the main point, I dont think we need to go THAT far, but I do think its fair to look at the community and ask ourselves what would make the game more fun, what would encourage players to play together, what will make RvR and SCs more competative? I put my finger on TWO main issues.

1) Assisting.
2) Guard (the topic of this thread).

People can sit and say all day long "they can make a macro" "there are addons that support this" blah blah, in reality add-ons are NOT intuitive. Messing with the HUD is not always intuitive. Guarding is NOT intuative especially with lack of animations, lack of buff to indicate when guarding etc. I am not a HUGE fan of wasting dev time for something an addon can do. However, even with the guard add on, making it easy to swap, making it easy to see if in range, I run into tanks all the time who never guard. Why? Well 1) its not FUN to be a guard-bot. 2) it doesnt benefit them at all, just makes the guy they guard get all the "glory".

Your idea to give a tank bonus-dmg if he does stay within guard-range will do one thing to the kind of population you're talking about (the ones, only wanting to see big numbers). 'Ey! Stick with ME, so I will do MORE DMG!!! OKAY?????'.
Thy won't learn 'Hey, I'm helping my mates'. They'll learn 'Ey, this will get me more dmg!!'.

I dont think so man... Any 2H tank who is trying to deal damage is going to want to max his damage. Realistically what this change would lead to is more guard swapping. Not necesssarily to the player that needs it the most (like a slayer or Choppa) but to the player who is closest to him TO get the damage bonus. But either way, its raising the skill floor and would make PUGs more competitive both in SC and RvR.

I would also be in favor of adding an actual animation anytime guard is actually working/active. I know when you first cast guard, it shows a "cast" animation. Frankly, I think this would be a good thing to have anytime guard is active. It lets YOU and HIM know when guard is working that is in the base game without addons. It also allows opponants to rely on visual cues rather than staring at buffs/debuff on the character to tell if guard is up.

We can talk about assisting but there are other threads for that.

I go back to what I keep saying. If you want more people guarding, its needs to be a mutually beneficial relationship in which the person guarding gets something in return. You can argue "well with team work opponants die more, you benefit from their debuffs etc etc" but clearly it isnt enough, otherwise people would do this more often.

I am NOT advocating to make tanks super IMBA with insane damage. Taunt provides 30% damage increase for a short time. Since this has more uptime, make it half the benefit - 15%. This is enough to make 2H guys want to stick by their guardee while not overbuffing tanks IMO to make them OP. The ones that do more damage NOW wouldnt be able to really use this as much, since they are not built as tanky. The "best" tanks would then be he ones that can last longer keeping the pressure up with ther guard/damage boost.

Also, I think this could be "RP appropriate" as its much harder for a defender to defend against 2 attackers than 1. Heck even if "guarding" provided a "reduced chance to be parried" or something... I just dont know if that would be enough "umph" to make 2H guys really wanna focus on guard....

At the end of the day, I go back to
1) raising skill floor
2) promoting team play
3) making the game more FUN

I have yet to hear 1 argument as to why this would be a negative thing. All I have heard is basically "I dont feel bad for guys who dont wanna L2P" and "this wasnt how it was on live.."

I dont see any DOWNSIDE to doing this. The only legitimate argument that does make a fair point is that premades would further benefit from this while PUGs wouldnt benefit as much. However while true, I think it lessens the "gap" in the benefit of premade guarding (which already happens) versus PUG guarding (which almost never happens). That gap TODAY is massive where as the gap after the proposed change would be much smaller.

[peterthepan3]

All I am getting from your comemnts are that 2h DPS tanks: who have NO interest in helping the team anyway; that DON'T want to guard their team anyway ('no glory!' as you said - then don't play a tank? That is the job of a tank and doesn't necessitate any attention simply because mrloldps wants all the glory); and who can't download an addon or two to help them with their guarding (Guarding is such an easy thing to do here) because it's so much effort - deserve a buff that (you purport) will somehow magically inspire them to be team players and actively use their guard.

In reality, given how people have a tendency to want everything given to them on a silver plate? The moment such a change is implemented, aforementioned Sauron the Destroyuer!1 dps tanks will come running to the forums demanding taunt be adjusted back to how it was.

You say that 'Realistically what this change would lead to is more guard swapping': if people are not prepared to use an integral part of their archetype WITHOUT BEING GIVEN MORE DAMAGE, then that speaks volumes about said people. You fail to mention that most guilded tanks/competitive tanks do NOT have such a problem because they have been able to grasp the very simple concept that if you are a tank, you should be using your guard.

If someone needs to be given extra candy because they ACTIVELY refuse to use their guard (the equivalent of not doing any DPS as a DPS, or refusing to use heals as a healer imo) then that is their problem, and they do not deserve kowtowing or changes just to aleviate the stress put on pug dps/healers as a direct result of THEIR arrogance/ignorance.



Petertheduelist's tips on guarding in PUG scens!

* Download: Enemy; EBG; EGS and configure them to show guard icons above your guarded friend, how far they are from you (there is a distance meter that goes red once you are too far), and also download Buffhead to show trackers on your enemy targets and group members just incase the 2nd tank is punted/someone isn't being guarded.

* Don't guard someone who is nowhere near you. I've noticed pugs have a tendency to guard a zealot or shaman (''he's my friend'' is a usual reply upon questioning them) which is ultimately useless. Guard the closest and most effective friendly DPS.

* Make an assist macro on the DPS you will be guarding. Upon entering a scenario, assess which DPS would benefit the most from your guard - based on previous performances, perhaps - and open your Macros, make a new one and type /assist <name of dps>. Place it on your action bar and spam it liberally so that you are always helping your guarded friend.



@Bloodi
I found wingz' elo-hell point to be pretty apparent, tbh.