Aoe Cap feedback after playing with it

[Lion1986]

To counter the latest comment, I dont disagree there is way more focus on having a good strong fighting formation now with tanks soaking up front and you cant run in as a MA on a dps and let tanks catch up to you now. but at the same time Tanks are soaking, meaning Challenges will get lost faster as tanks take dmg and are less impatcful and it makes the AOE cap seem to small as a solo warband your tanks&challenges will just get soaked and then mitigation is the same for the 8 frontline players on both sides of a warband vs warband clash in orvr, but challenges reaching far to the backlines are no longer a thing so bigger numbers have less mittigation reaching them and more zergsurfers get more unmitigated uptime. Hence making it harder for smallernumbers to fight against bigger, going against the intention of the test.

1) If you fight a wb twice your size, even if aoe cap is 300 ppl you get stomped anyway Happened before cap reduction, can happen today. The "small wb vs big wb" arguiment is pathetic. Get some sense of tactical engagement.
2)the cap reduction reduce effectiveness of "kamikaze" appraoach to rvr: why reason or think when i can jump in a blob and hit 24 ppl spamming 1 button? Past months rvr prior cap reductions were pathetic at best.
3) In wb vs wb (24vs24) you still have aoe (example engineer bomberr) and you need precision damage (example: SH ranged). with aoe reduction you are manking tanks a little more relevant than before and melee dps / rnaged dps dfferents between each other, creating a layer or strategy needed
4) You are wathcing the patch notes in your small bright wizard melee bomb aoe bubble. As a healer main, is WAY BETTER to have a 9-12 cap instead of seeing an ENTIRE wb insta drop due to multiple bombing in melee blobls without brain anbd getting shouted in discord "OMG HUUUL MEEH!!1!!". You got time to react and also as healer must choose priority targets and pay attention to healdebuffs.

More tanks, healers and some sandwiching is what allow 'organized' wb's to take on pugs, not high AOE caps. People are talking like if a bigger zerg won't also have more AOE. They will and they do. With 24 cap any fight turns into an AOE death ball, sucking any fun out of the game.

300% agree on this

[wonshot]

1) If you fight a wb twice your size, even if aoe cap is 300 ppl you get stomped anyway Happened before cap reduction, can happen today.
4) You are wathcing the patch notes in your small bright wizard melee bomb aoe bubble. As a healer main, is WAY BETTER to have a 9-12 cap instead of seeing an ENTIRE wb insta drop due to multiple bombing in melee blobls without brain anbd getting shouted in discord "OMG HUUUL MEEH!!1!!". You got time to react and also as healer must choose priority targets and pay attention to healdebuffs.

No reason to try to get personal or assume where I am coming from. But if my OP wasn't clear enough then I'm posting based on the comments and feedback I'm getting when leading and forming warbands. You seem to be projecting coming from your own healer point of view, where as I can not recognize what you are relaying based on what I hear from my own guild healers and people who pug with us every week. Our healers are telling me that the aoe can is hurting them and their ability to syphon M2. And that the lower pressure you can apply when outnumbered as a warband is making you faster feel like you are drowning compared to how it was before on aoe cap 24. It's fine to disagree but don't take your personal bias into this feedback please mate. You already sent me plenty of messages ingame about your views about me.. im providing this feedback and topic based on the test from balance team based on what they aimed to adress with this change.

The aoe cap test was stated to help players fight outnumbered in contrast to before, that is what this feedback post is about. If you can't keep it within the topic then make your own topic and stick it it please.

[Lion1986]

1) If you fight a wb twice your size, even if aoe cap is 300 ppl you get stomped anyway Happened before cap reduction, can happen today.
4) You are wathcing the patch notes in your small bright wizard melee bomb aoe bubble. As a healer main, is WAY BETTER to have a 9-12 cap instead of seeing an ENTIRE wb insta drop due to multiple bombing in melee blobls without brain anbd getting shouted in discord "OMG HUUUL MEEH!!1!!". You got time to react and also as healer must choose priority targets and pay attention to healdebuffs.

No reason to try to get personal or assume where I am coming from. But if my OP wasn't clear enough then I'm posting based on the comments and feedback I'm getting when leading and forming warbands. You seem to be projecting coming from your own healer point of view, where as I can not recognize what you are relaying based on what I hear from my own guild healers and people who pug with us every week. Our healers are telling me that the aoe can is hurting them and their ability to syphon M2. And that the lower pressure you can apply when outnumbered as a warband is making you faster feel like you are drowning compared to how it was before on aoe cap 24. It's fine to disagree but don't take your personal bias into this feedback please mate. You already sent me plenty of messages ingame about your views about me.. im providing this feedback and topic based on the test from balance team based on what they aimed to adress with this change.

The aoe cap test was stated to help players fight outnumbered in contrast to before, that is what this feedback post is about. If you can't keep it within the topic then make your own topic and stick it it please.

first of all nothing against you . I was speaking for "average bw in wb" (guess sorc we can mirror the thought). Third I sent you my opinion, nothing against ya in game. I am against the "mentality" (not you) about meta powerbomb zerging that dominated server in last 2 years. The reduction on 9 MIGHT be harsh (in fact if you check I proposed cap at 12 instead wich, for me, is a "soft point" concerning the aoe rework (especially because ranges have been shrinked to 25 yards)- [think how this impacted classes like magus and engi aswell. as no all people play BW/sorc/choppa. ( )
A example was LOTD yesterday.- Proper funneling of tanks literally invalidated the aoe bomb spam, requiring warbands to manouver, shift and attack from other directions. That made the event very enjoyable.

[Pinkywinky]

I love the new cap, the only people which I see are unhappy. Are the AOE bombing player, the issue is that Desto can’t bomb to the same level as the BW’s. So I can’t see any reason to go back to 24.

The fighting goes on for longer, which is more fun, apart for the few players unhappy with the new cap. The cap has been fun, please keep it at 9

[Rydiak]

I love the new cap, the only people which I see are unhappy. Are the AOE bombing player, the issue is that Desto can’t bomb to the same level as the BW’s. So I can’t see any reason to go back to 24.

The fighting goes on for longer, which is more fun, apart for the few players unhappy with the new cap. The cap has been fun, please keep it at 9

Well this is obviously hyperbolic. Simply read my post at the beginning of the thread to know that your statement isn't true. viewtopic.php?t=53617#p559433

[wonshot]

Talks about Longer fights, longer TimeToKill etc. is prefectly fine. But this was not the mentioned goal behind a lower aoe cap. As mentioned, the goal was to make lower numbers able to stand against bigger numbers. See the original post and the quote which this feedback topic is about.
Any intented or uninteted result of this, could be adressed by other means. Adjusting the proc values, internalcooldowns, ap costs, width etc etc. This topic is for collecting feedback if the targeted test, is hitting its mark or not. Intentional changes or unintentional changes can be taken elsewhere please! I was very clear in OP and followup messages.

Im sure most if not all players just want our keypresses to be meaningful, impactful, and propper play should be rewarded. Thats fine! I agree! Tanks matter somewhat more with the lower aoe cap, thats great, im hearing from my tanks that they somewhat enjoy this abit more in playing the archtype of controling, soaking, mitigating on the tank Archtype with their charcters but it came at the cost of Challenge ability became pretty non-factor.This debate is so misunderstood, its not only about the damagedealers guys. Same for healers, yeah you might have to crossheal more from the incoming aoe damagedealers in 24v24 warband as tanks in a propper possiton will not reach as far and wide and the Criticalmass is not extending to aoo of the damagedealer-line and at times reaching healer-line too, cool! but the unintented result is also that there will be more incoming "tail"pressure from more leeches running more safely unmittigated behind the warbands adding more pressure onto the frontlining warbands and can easier assist down leaders, damagedealers, healers in the main warband without getting affected by further reaching Challenges and Hold the line effects. Because of the lower aoe cap not debuffing as deep into the zerg, and hold the line not reaching as far to the allies backline.

The topic is about how the lower aoe cap manages to deal better or not with being outnumbered, as that is the test.
Indirectly yes it might mean longer fights, more decissionmaking and more power to each player in equal numbers fights. That..is..not..what..the..topic..is..about..
The topic is feedback if orvr players are feeling more or less impact being outnumbered while roaming, not in funnels, not in lotd funnels. Roaming open rvr where you either get a flank, get flanked, face off frontal or get reinforcements on either or both sides. Does the lower aoe cap help being outnumbered, if so, how and why.

[Lion1986]

Talks about Longer fights, longer TimeToKill etc. is prefectly fine. But this was not the mentioned goal behind a lower aoe cap. As mentioned, the goal was to make lower numbers able to stand against bigger numbers. See the original post and the quote which this feedback topic is about.
Any intented or uninteted result of this, could be adressed by other means. Adjusting the proc values, internalcooldowns, ap costs, width etc etc. This topic is for collecting feedback if the targeted test, is hitting its mark or not. Intentional changes or unintentional changes can be taken elsewhere please! I was very clear in OP and followup messages.

Im sure most if not all players just want our keypresses to be meaningful, impactful, and propper play should be rewarded. Thats fine! I agree! Tanks matter somewhat more with the lower aoe cap, thats great, im hearing from my tanks that they somewhat enjoy this abit more in playing the archtype of controling, soaking, mitigating on the tank Archtype with their charcters but it came at the cost of Challenge ability became pretty non-factor.This debate is so misunderstood, its not only about the damagedealers guys. Same for healers, yeah you might have to crossheal more from the incoming aoe damagedealers in 24v24 warband as tanks in a propper possiton will not reach as far and wide and the Criticalmass is not extending to aoo of the damagedealer-line and at times reaching healer-line too, cool! but the unintented result is also that there will be more incoming "tail"pressure from more leeches running more safely unmittigated behind the warbands adding more pressure onto the frontlining warbands and can easier assist down leaders, damagedealers, healers in the main warband without getting affected by further reaching Challenges and Hold the line effects. Because of the lower aoe cap not debuffing as deep into the zerg, and hold the line not reaching as far to the allies backline.

The topic is about how the lower aoe cap manages to deal better or not with being outnumbered, as that is the test.
Indirectly yes it might mean longer fights, more decissionmaking and more power to each player in equal numbers fights. That..is..not..what..the..topic..is..about..
The topic is feedback if orvr players are feeling more or less impact being outnumbered while roaming, not in funnels, not in lotd funnels. Roaming open rvr where you either get a flank, get flanked, face off frontal or get reinforcements on either or both sides. Does the lower aoe cap help being outnumbered, if so, how and why.

cap will never make anything better or worse concerning big or small wbs. Is another plane of reasoning entirely. There is no way you can make a warband fight 2 or 3 together under any circumstance. If that would be the case, rvr would be senseles.
Do aoe cap influence small wb vs high wb? No. Nor positive nor negatively. Is another matter entirely.

[Fenris78]

I think in the end it will be far better to adjust every AoE ability from a balance perspective, i.e. letting some skills hit 24 targets (like oil, challenge for instance), and others tailored by their desired impact, being 6, 9 or 12 maybe even 15 or 18 targets at once.

Then you could balance effectiveness of all skills by their target cap, for example make a skill only hitting 3 or 6 targets at once more powerful than another hitting 15, and so forth.

There will be never a middle ground for aoe because how varied and powerful synergies you can get with some abilities.

I think it would take more time to adjust aoe one by one, but in the end you will get more tailored results, adding to variety of AoE classes.
Making ground-targeted AoE maybe hitting more targets, to help denting funnels and force tactical spreading, and to compensate for static and avoidable effects.

I remember there was some tactics to hit more targets by your AoE skills, I'm not saying it should be the norm for every class, but with specific target counts for each ability, you will make more tactical choices and opportunities, maybe pringing more synergies between classes.

Currently it's obvious the choice been made is problematic, both in PvP and PvE for various reasons.

TL:DR : Each ability should have a specific target count, based upon how they are designed to be.

[Lion1986]

I think in the end it will be far better to adjust every AoE ability from a balance perspective, i.e. letting some skills hit 24 targets (like oil, challenge for instance), and others tailored by their desired impact, being 6, 9 or 12 maybe even 15 or 18 targets at once.

Then you could balance effectiveness of all skills by their target cap, for example make a skill only hitting 3 or 6 targets at once more powerful than another hitting 15, and so forth.

There will be never a middle ground for aoe because how varied and powerful synergies you can get with some abilities.

I think it would take more time to adjust aoe one by one, but in the end you will get more tailored results, adding to variety of AoE classes.
Making ground-targeted AoE maybe hitting more targets, to help denting funnels and force tactical spreading, and to compensate for static and avoidable effects.

I remember there was some tactics to hit more targets by your AoE skills, I'm not saying it should be the norm for every class, but with specific target counts for each ability, you will make more tactical choices and opportunities, maybe pringing more synergies between classes.

Currently it's obvious the choice been made is problematic, both in PvP and PvE for various reasons.

TL:DR : Each ability should have a specific target count, based upon how they are designed to be.

They could make: all caster dps aoe (bw/sorc/magus/engi) have a 12 cap. Tanks 24 cap on challenges / 12 morales. The rest 6 cap. (sw/sh melee and so on)

[Pinkywinky]

I love the new cap, the only people which I see are unhappy. Are the AOE bombing player, the issue is that Desto can’t bomb to the same level as the BW’s. So I can’t see any reason to go back to 24.

The fighting goes on for longer, which is more fun, apart for the few players unhappy with the new cap. The cap has been fun, please keep it at 9

Well this is obviously hyperbolic. Simply read my post at the beginning of the thread to know that your statement isn't true. viewtopic.php?t=53617#p559433

It is true that I am enjoying the new cap, not my problem if you and others are not
Have a nice day