Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

[Coryphaus]

That is literally false in the case of choppas

Unlike slayers, choppa need to run constantly in red to do their good dmg, hence why wot rules? Is basically a core tactic on choppas

Furthermore choppas can easily kill rps with the assistance of Bg debuffs

[Bozzax]

2h generally is considered to be much weaker then DW (or SnB) fix that first IHMO. DW +10% parry, 2x tally and more procs (or block) just dwarf outgoing strikethrough.

The "Strikethrough" of 2h:ers could have guard damage be split 60/40 instead of 50/50 as well as reduce parry/block (for the abilities and AA of the 2h:er). Even having guarded target take 60% and guard 50% would be quite cool.

This would make all 2h:ers more attractive not just 2h-tanks (2h-WLs, dps WPs or any 2h-MDPS).
Note: Staves weren't a true 2h:er in WAR so they never got the "Strikethrough" effect. They were mostly held in 1h (exception RPs) but had 2h stats and tally restrictions.

IF 2h-tanks still needs more love add the same "Strikethrough buff" to 2h:ers guarded target also (in range). Thus giving their wingman the same outgoing damage change vs a guarded target.

Regardless affecting outgoing 2h:er damage is far better then incoming migration on guarded target.

If guard can be "removed" consistently by 2hs it will dramatically reduce an outnumbered groups chance to succeed vs a larger force to nothing.

[Azarael]

The idea of great weapon attacks using a different Guard split ratio is interesting to me. Do you envision that any other buffs to two-handers would be required or would this be a strong enough incentive?

[Vilhelmina]

Are you seriously thinking of buffing 2H tanks!?!?!?

Well, since we're on the crazy train...

How about giving access to heavy armour for all MDPS?
Or give MDPS option to taunt?
Or give them option to fit a small shield/buckler in their off-hand?

[Azarael]

Very constructive post. Please make some actual arguments in it next time instead of "muh archetype! muh strawmanning!!!"

[Vilhelmina]

Okay...

2H tanks are TANKS! They're supposed to be tough and hard to kill, and their drawback is they don't do decent damage.

Can MDPS respec to do weaker damage, but become insanely hard to kill?

ROLL A MDPS!?

[Azarael]

Except it doesn't quite work out that way in practice, does it? If two hand tanks were actually balanced, they would be viable options in competitive compositions.

If a tank puts on a two hander and specs offensively, they have a right to perform a damage-related role. They shouldn't do as much damage as MDPS, BUT their damage must be balanced with respect to their other capabilities, including survivability, relative to their S&B state or they're not balanced. MDPS come with specialist tools which allow them to fulfill their role. Tanks lack these and instead have more CC, but this is almost always pointed out as a reason why tanks shouldn't be allowed to do any damage in an offensive configuration, and I've never understood it.

[Bozzax]

The idea of great weapon attacks using a different Guard split ratio is interesting to me. Do you envision that any other buffs to two-handers would be required or would this be a strong enough incentive?

Personally I'd go very slowly and step by step. As pointed out tanks are far from weak even though I think 2h-ers fall short of their SnB brothers (even more so in group play).

A. Add different ratio to 2h vs guard that affect MDPS as well. This is really just addressing DW, SnB being so much better then 2h.

B. Evaluate a month or so and if 2h tanks need more on top of this. If so do a test run where 2-h tank pass on "Strikethrough" to their friendly guard. (I wouldn't let a 2h tank that guards a 2h MDPS get x2 Strikethrough)

Not sure B is needed though the increased damage combined with higher damage from 2h:er could be enough to make it a serious alternative to running SnB

[Coryphaus]

2h tanks wont be viable in competitive comps b/c they are terribad guards b/c snb can hold off blows with block + parry and 2h tanks have only parry; and trying to force some really potentially game altering mechanics az i dont feel is the right way to go about all this.

Off classing isnt ment to be "viable" its ment to be fun and for screwing around and the dmg they deal while not at the lvl of true mdps is still pretty high

Having said that though i really do find bozzax's strike through changes to 2hs very interesting

[skutrug]

Yes, we understand that there is a significant number of people who want their guardbot so that they can enjoy their style of playing...
Unfortunately this does not take into account what the tank wants to do. I am sure that that Choppas and WH will still be able to find people enjoying AFK while on /follow behind them...
No need to be defensive, you will still have your S&B tanks.
Meanwhile, a minority can try to enjoy playing the way they actually want, without being told how to play their tank.
I agree with the gradual change strategy.