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Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

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Doodoopeepee
Posts: 13

Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

Post#1 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:16 pm

I know you're so excited to talk about 2H tanks again, yay! But let's be honest...there are a ton of people who like to play 2H tank. They should be able to if they want. Hear me out. I will be primarily talking about 2H Swordmaster, since they're weird and don't seem to fit anywhere else, but fit this role really well. I imagine any 2H tank can fulfill this role, however. Also - this is all theory. I know most of the comments will be about how 2H Tank is a waste of a spot in an SC or RvR WB, but that's not going to stop people form playing them as long as they remain as much fun as they currently are. :)

I've noticed when people talk about usefulness, they talk about 6-mans. That's fine. But most pvp that most people experience isn't 6-man pvp, it's pugs! Sure, many SCs have a 6-man in them...but what about the rest of the people in the match? What about those delicious BW/Sorcs sitting the back getting raped by WL/Maras? Its only going to get worse for them in T3/T4 when WLs get Pounce, WE/WH become useful, Maras get their pull, etc. They need help. They need a big tough mofo who can disable threats, while also tearing them to pieces.

I believe with the right build and gear 2H tanks can fill a "new" type of roll in SCs/RvR: 'Backlines Bodyguard'. With such a different build from usual tanks, they will fulfill this role better than an MDPS (who would be wasted babysitting the back), and a typical 6-man SnB tank who should be in the front-lines assisting The Slayer/Choppa faceroll train, or fighting the mirror 6-man group.

2H tanks, when properly built, are basically MDPS who do not need to be guarded/babysat with the trade-off that less dps is being dealt to non-Taunted targets. The key word here is properly built: this means no goddamn Focused Offense. It translates to you taking +30%+ more physical damage for +15% more damage dealt. A great talent in duels/roam versus casters, but for general SC/RvR not so much.

What is the build?
  1. Focuses on Strength > Toughness > WS. You build like a DPS, but available tank gear always has toughness on it. You should have more Toughness than an MDPS, but less STR/WS overall.
  2. Run DPS Tactics, but NO FOCUSED OFFENSE. It ruins your survivability. Rugged is good too if you only have one decent DPS Tactic. SM have 2 fantastic DPS Tactics in T2, Ensorcelled Agony and Deep Incision.
  3. When Reknown Ranks are finished, focus on a mix of Defensive (Reflexes, Trivial Blows) and Offensive (+Str, +Crit) ranks.
  4. Always run Champion's Challenge M1. SMs can run Wings of Heaven when available, otherwise use Raze for burst.
So, what are the goals/priorities of a Bodyguard?
  1. Negate MDPS who make it to backlines.
    -Primary responsibility. In most cases, the enemy MDPS will tunnel someone in your backline and may or may not be assisted by some RDPS. This allows you to Taunt him and do some pretty nuts damage as long as he stays Taunted. You will get Detaunted, but so will everyone else. This is where 2H tanks come in handy - using Challenge (-30% dmg dealt) + Dragon's Talon (-20% dmg dealt), you can effectively 'Detaunt' any MDPS, in addition to Guarding his target. This forces the MDPS to turn and face you, or just sit and not do any real damage to anyone. Because you're smart and didn't forsake Toughness and you don't run Focused Offense, you can safely Guard an ally from 1-2 enemy DPS without exploding. In addition, you can use Champions Challenge M1 to effectively negate anything they can do to anyone for 10s (assuming it works). Couple this with the huge amount of stats you generate from Nature's Blade, perma-snare, +50% build-up (only good for MDPS channeling) and rock-solid DPS, you can keep your squishies safe and sound without stressing your healers too much.
  2. Assist 6-man deathball by harassing enemy backlines.
    -Secondary; you will only be able to do this if your deathball is better than theirs. Since you naturally take 50% less damage from physical, you can saunter up to enemy backlines amidst your 6-man Deathball (don't go solo - you have no Detaunt) and harass enemy squishies. As previously stated, well-built 2H tanks deal considerable damage versus Taunted targets. Being able to tie up a healer and force him to run prevents him from being able to stand still and chain-cast AoEs, which can create an opening for your deathball to swing on through. If you get detaunted, great! This allows your deathball DPS to swap to that healer and explode them. You can also use your M1 to root an enemy tank/healer that got punted as your deathball chases the enemy healer. Note: Guarded 2H tank makes for a real tough SoB, so if your non-deathball SC group has a tank in it, take advantage.
  3. Roam and backcap.
    -2H tanks with a good build perform extremely well in small 2v2, 3v3 skirmishes, and as such is perfect at backcapping. While you do well 1v1 versus most classes, the real 1v1 classes (Healers, Mara) will eventually beat you. Partner up with a buddy and go steal points away from the zerg/deathball!
Thanks for reading.

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Coryphaus
Posts: 2230

Re: Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

Post#2 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:22 pm

If defensive pounce is added to SM just like BlOrcs then then wont need to stay in the back lines but rather can be out their in the front dealing their spiritual dmg and then if one of you party like a healer communicates that they are in danger from an mdps or something then you can defensivly leap back to them

I still hold the opinion that 2H tanks are terrible past t2 for multiple reasons including that you are a pretty bad guard-er

SM is better than most at 2h tanking simply b/c it has a bunch of +parry abilities but still in general thats what I feel
Last edited by Coryphaus on Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

Post#3 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:24 pm

A SnB Swordmaster can fill this same role and do it better.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

Post#4 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:28 pm

The fundamental issue is that 2Hs are not made as vital to tank DPS as they should be. I believe in the Q&A someone linked with the last Mythic balancer, the issue of 2H-requirement abilities not being considered as being on even footing with MDPS abilities in terms of damage because "taaaaaaank!" was mentioned.

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Doodoopeepee
Posts: 13

Re: Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

Post#5 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:32 pm

Penril wrote:A SnB Swordmaster can fill this same role and do it better.
I disagree. The main idea behind it is that you're fighting targets who aren't hitting you, thus making the increased dps from 2H better. The extra utility and "oh-****" buttons (M1 - Challenge) you bring versus a regular MDPS is what further cements 2H SM in this position. Guarding isn't completely useless either: you guard a BW who detaunted the Marauder on his ass, you don't take that much dmg.

Also, SM 2H doesn't really do well until you get Ether Dance in T3. I'm curious to see how T3 plays out which is also when a dedicated babysitter for back lines will be more important.

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Doodoopeepee
Posts: 13

Re: Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

Post#6 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:35 pm

Azarael wrote:The fundamental issue is that 2Hs are not made as vital to tank DPS as they should be. I believe in the Q&A someone linked with the last Mythic balancer, the issue of 2H-requirement abilities not being considered as being on even footing with MDPS abilities in terms of damage because "taaaaaaank!" was mentioned.
That is true. I feel that 2H should add more dps than it does, overall. Most of the 2H-only abilities are fairly solid, Ether Dance being pretty amazing with the right setup (+20% crit tactic, spirit dmg debuff on target, taunt on target, etc.)

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

Post#7 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:51 pm

Doodoopeepee wrote:
Penril wrote:A SnB Swordmaster can fill this same role and do it better.
I disagree. The main idea behind it is that you're fighting targets who aren't hitting you, thus making the increased dps from 2H better. The extra utility and "oh-****" buttons (M1 - Challenge) you bring versus a regular MDPS is what further cements 2H SM in this position. Guarding isn't completely useless either: you guard a BW who detaunted the Marauder on his ass, you don't take that much dmg.

Also, SM 2H doesn't really do well until you get Ether Dance in T3. I'm curious to see how T3 plays out which is also when a dedicated babysitter for back lines will be more important.
You rely on the fact that people won't hit you. If we attack a RP and a 2H SM guards him and tries to protec his backlines, we just kill him. Fast. How? We will focus the RP and the SM will take huge amounts of guard damage without a shield. The RP will be busy healing himself and at that moment we switch to the low-HP SM and finish him off.

I like the effort you put into this, but remember: always theorycraft based on the premise that you fight good, smart players.

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Doodoopeepee
Posts: 13

Re: Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

Post#8 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:05 pm

Penril wrote:
You rely on the fact that people won't hit you. If we attack a RP and a 2H SM guards him and tries to protec his backlines, we just kill him. Fast. How? We will focus the RP and the SM will take huge amounts of guard damage without a shield. The RP will be busy healing himself and at that moment we switch to the low-HP SM and finish him off.

I like the effort you put into this, but remember: always theorycraft based on the premise that you fight good, smart players.
Who is this "we" you speak of? :) The whole post is about a lone 2H-tank protecting the backline from 1-2 MDPS who storm in, detaunt, and :|...not the giant 6-man murderball. Not a big deal in T2, but it will get worse in T3/T4 with WH/WE finally hitting puberty, and WLs getting Pounce.

Yes, if a BG-guarded Choppa and their pockethealer storm a single RP, he's dead. There's nothing anyone else can do about it by themselves, besides another healer (maybe). It takes a murderball to counter a murderball. Or great cooperation of super-punt, CC and focused DPS on a single target.

I guess the overall goal is to have a single 2H tank be able to take a lot of stress (or all of it) off of healers who have to scramble to protect backlines people.

EDIT - and thank you! I love theorycraft, and you're right...always assume your enemy makes all the right decisions, all the time.

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lilsabin
Posts: 619

Re: Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

Post#9 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:12 pm

good luck

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Jaycub
Posts: 3130

Re: Role of 2H SM: Backlines Bodyguard

Post#10 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:15 pm

He means you should never theorycraft around low level play, it is a waste of time. For SM you should probably be building around the fact you will be fighting against the meta destro 6 man of DoK/Zealot/Mara/Choppa/Chosen/BG.

I really hate the current meta, it is basically built around the fact that if you lose a 1 healer... you lose the fight. If you lose a dps... you are probably going to lose, unless one of your 2 healers can get a res off and protect everyone while the res sickness is wearing off. A single healer will never get a res off on the other one against a competent team, meaning it is almost always a loss if you are the 1st to lose your healer.

Which is why comps are built around doing as much single target DPS as possible. Having a 2h SM in your 6 man means he will probably die 1st, then you are down a guard and at a gigantic disadvantage.

It's probably less dramatic in a 12v12 environment like SC's, losing 1 DPS probably isn't a huge deal. But losing a healer still will probably spell doom if both 6 mans in the SC are premades.

edit - weird spaces IDK why :(
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