DoK/WP with book/chalice...

[bloodi]

This seems to come up in the threads about DoKs and WPs, and I've been wondering about it: just what exactly is wrong with the WP/DoK standing back and spamming their heals like the other two class types tend to?
I don't mean specific abilities/mastery paths (for example potentially overpowered group heals). I mean the concept itself, that some players seem to oppose, insisting in one way or another that WPs/DoKs must fight in melee to be able to heal.

Their cast times, defense, mechanic and skills balance were intended to work in melee range and are balanced around it.

When you get balanced around being in meele range and are never in it and still outperforming the other healers, dont you think there is a clear flaw design wise?

[TenTonHammer]

because that was their original design and intention that was botched in implementation

they were ment to be front line healers not backline aoe gheal/clense spammers who outshine other heal options to the extent that much like kotbs/chosen running atleast 1 is basically mandatory

[Azarael]

Nothing is wrong with the base concept as long as it is balanced and can still remain balanced while making the other specs work.

As has been pointed out above... the way WP/DoK were originally designed is going to make that difficult to do without overpowering the backline specs, though I have some ideas.

[Gobtar]

This seems to come up in the threads about DoKs and WPs, and I've been wondering about it: just what exactly is wrong with the WP/DoK standing back and spamming their heals like the other two class types tend to?
I don't mean specific abilities/mastery paths (for example potentially overpowered group heals). I mean the concept itself, that some players seem to oppose, insisting in one way or another that WPs/DoKs must fight in melee to be able to heal.

I don't feel Warrior Priests should be shoe-horned into playing melee healers, I would like that to be a viable spec, I just don't think the class should outstrip back line healing if that is what the WP wants to do.

WPs IMO should give up greater healing power for surviability, however the trade off is that they healers heal less but the can cast quicker and they still keep their durability.

I think All healers should have powerful quick healers, but the WPs are less powerful due to the added survivability they are afforded.

Please keep in mind this is just purely looking at it from an abstract point of view instead of a pure theorycrafting one.

[bwdaWAR]

Wasn't the original design of the AM/Shaman to be a hybrid ranged DPS caster/healer, judging from the whole Force/Tranquility and Gork's Waaagh!/Mork's Waaagh! mechanics? Yet I don't ever see people complaining about them not being forced into DPSing to be able to heal, which is expected of the DoK/WP. AMs/Shaman can spam their healing just fine.

And that is the reason I brought this question up to begin with: a healer who does DPS is a hybrid at best, or a pure DPS with selfheals for survival, not a main healer. Whatever their abilities may be, forcing DoKs/WPs literally into melee would make them unable to act as a main healer and would have to function as hybrids. This would make them the only class that has to do that since all other healers can act as pure healers, all tanks can be pure tank, all DPS can pure DPS - no other class is expected to be a hybrid. The complains are usually saying that DoKs/WPs are a must-have. Then it would go from that to unwanted. Just think of DPS healers now - that is what forcing DoKs/WPs into melee would do.
They'd have to devote time to deal damage, meaning less healing abilities used. Also it'd be unreasonable to expect to be able to deal damage and do as much healing as cloth healers who only heal at the same time. Plus, a melee healer is at a much greater risk. All melee DPS are told very early in their game that without a tank to Guard them, they'll die all the time. The cloth healers don't really need a Guard most of the time because they can stay far away from melee (generally the most dangerous spot to be), DoKs/WPs in melee would. Melee DPS, even Guarded, still die fairly often, but that's okay since they can count on the healers to resurrect them - something that would be the DoK's/WP's job, except in melee they would be the ones dying as often as melee DPS, and would need another healer to get them back up. They also would have trouble resurrecting others as doing so in melee can easily get the player resurrected (and low at health plus with rez sickness) killed again.
Tweaking masteries or abilities is one thing, but some people seem to wish to remove the option for DoKs/WPs to act as main healers completely and force them into a role of either hybrid healers or pure DPS. (Which should be available and valid, as valid they are to the other two healers at least, but not at the expense of the main healer role.)

[ThePollie]

I don't feel Warrior Priests should be shoe-horned into playing melee healers, I would like that to be a viable spec, I just don't think the class should outstrip back line healing if that is what the WP wants to do.

WPs IMO should give up greater healing power for surviability, however the trade off is that they healers heal less but the can cast quicker and they still keep their durability.

I think All healers should have powerful quick healers, but the WPs are less powerful due to the added survivability they are afforded.

Please keep in mind this is just purely looking at it from an abstract point of view instead of a pure theorycrafting one.

The problem with that is the effective quality. If WPs have their ranged heals nerfed on the grounds they are durable, then why take them? If they can't heal enough to keep pace with damage dealt, it doesn't matter how durable they are, and actually counters the durability. Who cares if nobody can kill them easily if they aren't outputting enough heals to give people a reason to kill them?

As for melee healing, the argument they shouldn't heal as much as Salvation, on grounds they contribute to damage, is absolute trash. Grace is for healing, it should heal enough to compete. You get that extra damage because you lose survivability when going from back-line to front-line. Why would you ever take a melee healer, who requires immensely more work to sustain in the field, when you can take a back-line healer that not only heals better, but is vastly safer to use?

Edit- Jesus, my second part was spot on timing with that last post. These threads are becoming too damn predictable.

[bwdaWAR]

As for melee healing, the argument they shouldn't heal as much as Salvation, on grounds they contribute to damage, is absolute trash. Grace is for healing, it should heal enough to compete. You get that extra damage because you lose survivability when going from back-line to front-line. Why would you ever take a melee healer, who requires immensely more work to sustain in the field, when you can take a back-line healer that not only heals better, but is vastly safer to use?

That's a good point, I retract my statement about it being unreasonable to expect. But I still maintain that melee healers wouldn't be able to fill the role of a main healer because of that lower of survivability.

[ThePollie]

That's a good point, I retract my statement about it being unreasonable to expect. But I still maintain that melee healers wouldn't be able to fill the role of a main healer because of that lower of survivability.

I believe they should, but it will likely take a different pace in combat. With the extra damage from melee healers on top of dedicated DPS and tanks, you can put a lot more pressure on people. Enough, I'd hope, that you could be aggressive and simply sledgehammer the enemy down, instead of dancing around tanks for a minute waiting for everyone to 'charge up' with morales and the like to obliterate one target at a time.

Edit- An example being, instead of the usual 2/2/2 set up, you can run two tanks to guard a melee healer and melee DPS, a ranged DPS and ranged healer.

[Sulorie]

Nothing is wrong with the base concept as long as it is balanced and can still remain balanced while making the other specs work.

As has been pointed out above... the way WP/DoK were originally designed is going to make that difficult to do without overpowering the backline specs, though I have some ideas.

Tweak how they regen their mechanic and back line healing will be inefficient. It's no rocket science.

[Gobtar]

The problem with that is the effective quality. If WPs have their ranged heals nerfed on the grounds they are durable, then why take them? If they can't heal enough to keep pace with damage dealt, it doesn't matter how durable they are, and actually counters the durability. Who cares if nobody can kill them easily if they aren't outputting enough heals to give people a reason to kill them?

There are plenty of other reasons to take a WP, aoe cleanse is a major one, by bringing the cloth healers single target big heal and Aoe heal more in line cast wise (adjustments will need to be made for clothie healing amount), it will make them competitive for raw healing. I wouldn't actually touch the WPs heals. I think they are fine the way they are. The other change I would make is have Gork'll fix it equivalents be GCD bypassing, but keep it at 55AP, it suddenly becomes extremely useful...where right now it's crap.