DoK/WP with book/chalice...

[bloodi]

I am fine with them being medium armor, i am fine with them having the standard heal range, i even find not so bad that they do not have to rely on AP.

My issue is how ridiculously better they are gcd wise, where every other healer spends a gcd to cleanse 1 thing, they cleanse the entire group, when a healer needs 6 gcds to hot their group, they do it in 1, where other healers needd 2 gcds to cast a group heal, they ddo it in 1.

Thats my issue and what i think needs to be adressed.

[Penril]

I am fine with them being medium armor, i am fine with them having the standard heal range, i even find not so bad that they do not have to rely on AP.

My issue is how ridiculously better they are gcd wise, where every other healer spends a gcd to cleanse 1 thing, they cleanse the entire group, when a healer needs 6 gcds to hot their group, they do it in 1, where other healers needd 2 gcds to cast a group heal, they ddo it in 1.

Thats my issue and what i think needs to be adressed.

Interesting. I have a few questions:

1) If you you could change their group cleanse tactic, how would you change it?

2) If their cast times are longer, would you let them be setback? Considering they can't kite as well as other healers. So if their group heal now takes 2.5s instead of 1.5, would you make it so they can't be set back? Also, would you increase the value of the heal?

3) How would you change their group HoT's and Absorb shield?

[ThePollie]

What compensation, what on earth entitles you to be better than the other healers?

What compensation do other healers have? You would still have the only armor aura in the game, you would still have medium armor compared to their lighht, you would still have the only group shield, you would still be the only healer not relying on ap to heal.

In how many aspects needs wp/dok to outclass the other healers for you to be "fair"?

How about that 100 foot stagger? Group AP recovery on 30 second cool down without expending a morale slot? Group armour and resistance buff? Wounds buff in any mastery spec? Increasing allied morale? AoE snare without needing melee, tactic slot, and two successful attacks? An actual heal debuff?

I did not say I wanted WPs/DoKs to outclass the other healers. But all I've been hearing is people whining about group cleanses and medium armour, screaming for the class to be curbed in any way they can conjure up. You shove Salvation into the front line and you'll kill any comp using it. You start giving away what makes the class unique from the others and you'll remove any sense in using it.

This might shock some, but not everything needs to be shared and mirrored. A few things need balanced, but each of the healers should have their advantages over one another. Warrior priests aren't mobile, but for that trade off they are durable. The quicker heals are to compensate for the fact you can't kite for ****. A lot of the times you have to suck it up and tank the damage. A long cast combined with push-back would cripple you without end.

Group shields are that strong? Fantastic, with something having a bloody minute long cool-down I'd expect it to knock someone's socks off. Beats the hell out of Divine Aegis, I'd gladly trade that for Rune of Insanity.

You want the group cleanse addressed? Double the cool down if the tactic's used. It's still an upgrade for the group, it's just a down grade for single target use. Last I checked, the other healers can take a tactic that lets them spam cleanse, which is damn funny to use when someone tries to DoT someone up.

[Sizer]

This might shock some, but not everything needs to be shared and mirrored. A few things need balanced, but each of the healers should have their advantages over one another. Warrior priests aren't mobile, but for that trade off they are durable. The quicker heals are to compensate for the fact you can't kite for ****. A lot of the times you have to suck it up and tank the damage. A long cast combined with push-back would cripple you without end.

This might shock you, but you dont know how to play those classes if you think they are immobile. We used to run 2x wp groups in 400% aao all the time and kite zergs across a two zones before they finally caught us.

Besides, even with the recent change, two of the cloth healers arent mobile either (am/shaman obivously). This also might shock people, since they see those classes kiting warbands and go "omgz nerf!", but the real situation is that while those classes kite warbands they cant heal their group for **** while doing so. So what compensates that?

[bloodi]

....

1)Gone, Am/shaman get the 500 heal on cleanse tactic, that is the ridiculous diference, we are glad that our single target cleanse puts a pitiful hot besides a pitiful shield, how they Dok/Wp get something that lets them cleanse entire groups is so bizarre to me.

2) Setback mechanics are relics of an old age, specially when its "sometimes", you are either able to cast or you are not, leave RNG for heartstone. I dont mind the values being adjusted so its on par with the other 2 healers group heal.

3)I am fine with the shield, the cd is big, it promotes smart play and knowing when to use it and i much rather see group hots for all healers than them just losing it.

[Azarael]

The question is, can the power of the WP / DoK's backline spec be saved by forcing it to frontline more to build resource?

[ThePollie]

The question is, can the power of the WP / DoK's backline spec be saved by forcing it to frontline more to build resource?

Which the tome counteracts. Without that, they'd have to rely more on Supplication (Which hurts Divine Mend) and Smite, instead of just being handed the resource.

[Azarael]

Sadly, every time I see this discussion I reach the same conclusion - the tome and chalice should never have existed in the first place, and WP and DoK should be the one healing class that does not backline. All the benefits listed previously were given based on the assumption that these classes would be in the front lines building resource and would need great benefits to counteract their downtime in doing so.

[Sizer]

The question is, can the power of the WP / DoK's backline spec be saved by forcing it to frontline more to build resource?

Which the tome counteracts. Without that, they'd have to rely more on Supplication (Which hurts Divine Mend) and Smite, instead of just being handed the resource.

Could a simple increased cost for supplication + smite be enough to make a difference? Like if it was a serious increase in cost, to the point where they would have a real reason to run restorative burst or ap regen gear to overcome it. I mean that wouldnt fix much, but it would add another layer of skill to a very easy class.

[bloodi]

You are not going to be able to remove chalices/tomes.

I wish you would but they are in since the beta iirc, its just too ingrained in the game and how people plays them.

When i was a little baldie starting to hammer people in the face in retail, people were already telling me to forget 2h and get a tome.

Now imagine you tell these people to forget the tome and get a 2h, they will just stop playing, its fine that the option exists, what we want is just to not be not only the best option as wp/dok but as a healer pick for your group.