2H Tanks: 9001th thread edition

[TenTonHammer]

If one of the things that we could implement was that 2h tanks them selves (not the weapons unless the devs can reclassify sl,ch and wl 2hs not to be affected by changes to tank 2hs) could be counters to guard then they could have unique roles

along with some small buffs here and their to their other niches such as 10s on CD

more distance on rending blade so that their is not much redundancy between it and blast wave on applying cs

[Dreadspectre]

Are we trying to make 2H tanks = mdps? Or are we trying to give them a unique role?

2 very different things.

Well..I don't want 2H Tanks to have the full DPS output of MDPS.

That being said, being a DPS that is able to guard kind of IS a specialized role. Just not 100% DPS potential of a MDPS, like an 85% would be good.

[th3gatekeeper]

Are we trying to make 2H tanks = mdps? Or are we trying to give them a unique role?

2 very different things.

Clearly Unique roll.... Not MDPS. Guard is a MUST and any good tank will have an MDPS on guard.

So there should be three viable ways to play: 1) Tank 2)Control/Utility 3)DPS... Or "hybrid" if you want to get complicated.


Right now DPS tanks dont really offer anything to the group.

My post above was merely pointing out that other classes that face this "crux", like AM for example, of healing versus damage have a 20% reducing to healing with a 25% damage boost.

As I suggested, forcing F.O. to require a 2H now has a built in "reduction in tankiness" as you forfeit block AND encounters that require SnB like Hold the Line, but comes with an appropriate amount of increased damage (25%) which STILL wont put them anywhere near an MDPS' output.

Most MDPS dont JUST have DPS but also have more utility (See Shatter Limbs as an example) and also (looking at Slayer) they can deal massive AoE damage as well.

most "DPS Tanks" dont have many AoE abilities that also deal good damage, and ones that are are not spammable (to my knowledge).

Offering more "utility" to 2H Tanks, I dont know solves the problem... Maybe it does.... But getting a 2H tank to a "respectable" damage level I think makes them a viable threat and more valued in a party given their "hybrid" approach as a middle ground between tank and MDPS.

When I slot FO currently My armor drops down to around MDPS levels without the ability to put out damage like an MDPS can...

[saupreusse]

yeah, while the defensive tank is too strong (lets not get into it again,before the new forums are up),
the offensive tank is struggeling a lot.
What I think most offensive tanks lack, is mobility. And the fact that they have nearly no defense when it comes to defending against ranged classes makes them pretty weak against nearly every ranged dps.
SM has a nice anti ranged dps skill, maybe that is one of the reasons why ppl always play him offensive?

[Dreadspectre]

yeah, while the defensive tank is too strong (lets not get into it again,before the new forums are up),
the offensive tank is struggeling a lot.
What I think most offensive tanks lack, is mobility. And the fact that they have nearly no defense when it comes to defending against ranged classes makes them pretty weak against nearly every ranged dps.
SM has a nice anti ranged dps skill, maybe that is one of the reasons why ppl always play him offensive?

I cry on my BO/CH whenever I see intelligent SW's on the other team.

Juggernaut just isn't going to do anything for me heh.

[roadkillrobin]

@TenTonHammer
Wounds debuff is worth much more then 10% Crit for your team in terms of dmg. 10% Crit increase is on avrerege about 5% dmg. I dunno how much AS is at full mAstery but i think it's around 110 Wounds at 35. Wich represent 1100 Dmg wich would be around 20% dmg increase. Aslong as the targets dies ofc. Also if you got 2 KOTBS in group you can't run 2 Dirty Tricks.

@Peoplediscussing Big Un, I never said the tactics were related. I just listed the 2hander stuff for each class. It's true that BO gains the least from using 2hander. But comparing Big Swing and Big Un is not wise. Big Un has more the twice base dmg of Big Swing. It also costs 0 AP while Big Swing costs alot.

Personally i don't think 2hander tanks should be in line of mdps for dmg. However agree that 2hander tanks should bring something Uniqe to the group wich moast allready does.

[Penril]

So there should be three viable ways to play: 1) Tank 2)Control/Utility 3)DPS... Or "hybrid" if you want to get complicated.

What is the difference between 1 and 2 in your eyes?

[th3gatekeeper]

So there should be three viable ways to play: 1) Tank 2)Control/Utility 3)DPS... Or "hybrid" if you want to get complicated.

What is the difference between 1 and 2 in your eyes?

Sure, Ill expand my thoughts.

I look at Chosen as being one of the best "designed" Tanks. Why? First, he gets party buffs (Auras) so right off the bat he provides something just being in the group.

Looking at his "2h/Offensive tree" he gets: Crippling Strikes, Oppressive Blows, and Rending Blade - all three Synergize very well. So he buffs his own crit, gets an AoE attack that cannot be defended against and if that crits, lowers the damage of enemies for 10 seconds. Combine this with guard and you have a pretty useful tank - even if he isnt UBEr tanky.

Looking at his "tank" tree he gets: Mixed Defenses, Oppression - which are kinda "meh" but is made up for with Destined for Victory (not in the tank tree but requires a Shield). So this tree (IMO) is a little lackluster but still illustrates the point. I would probably swap Destined INTO this tree and remove Corruptive Power so now it truly does offer something other trees cant.

Before moving on, a step back and you see the nice design in which you cant get Oppressing Blows AND use Destined for Victory, so there is some choice there. Either get the crit to reduce the damage of the enemy, OR use a shield, stack block % and get morale up crazy fast. Combined with damage reduction, armor buff, and more parry % to be nice and tanky.

Then looking at Discord, it offers "utility/control" type effects. Discordant Turbulence - heal reduction. Quake - Staggers. Tzeenich's Reflection - Disrupt + Silence. Now the Stagger USED to be 10 seconds and very good. Heal reduction is MEH since I was told it doesnt stack but you can still see the "try" towards benefits there. Disrupt + Silence can be powerful, I think this ability merely lacks damage otherwise it would be good.


Now I am not trying to weigh in on if Chosen > Other tanks. Or if Chosen SnB is better or worse than Knight etc. Merely reflecting that all paths seem SOMEWHAT viable and you can atleast take a step back and see the benefits of all the paths.


So that is the TYPE of thing in a perfect world, you would see.

Damage Tree
Tank Tree
Utility/CC Tree

[Dreadspectre]

So there should be three viable ways to play: 1) Tank 2)Control/Utility 3)DPS... Or "hybrid" if you want to get complicated.

What is the difference between 1 and 2 in your eyes?

Sure, Ill expand my thoughts.

I look at Chosen as being one of the best "designed" Tanks. Why? First, he gets party buffs (Auras) so right off the bat he provides something just being in the group.

Looking at his "2h/Offensive tree" he gets: Crippling Strikes, Oppressive Blows, and Rending Blade - all three Synergize very well. So he buffs his own crit, gets an AoE attack that cannot be defended against and if that crits, lowers the damage of enemies for 10 seconds. Combine this with guard and you have a pretty useful tank - even if he isnt UBEr tanky.

Looking at his "tank" tree he gets: Mixed Defenses, Oppression - which are kinda "meh" but is made up for with Destined for Victory.

Before moving on, a step back and you see the nice design in which you cant get Oppressing Blows AND use Destined for Victory, so there is some choice there. Either get the crit to reduce the damage of the enemy, OR use a shield, stack block % and get morale up crazy fast. Combined with damage reduction, armor buff, and more parry % to be nice and tanky.

Then looking at Discord, it offers "utility/control" type effects. Discordant Turbulence - heal reduction. Quake - Staggers. Tzeenich's Reflection - Disrupt + Silence.


Now I am not trying to weigh in on if Chosen > Other tanks. Or if Chosen SnB is better or worse than Knight etc. Merely reflecting that all paths seem SOMEWHAT viable and you can atleast take a step back and see the benefits of all the paths.


So that is the TYPE of thing in a perfect world, you would see.

Damage Tree
Tank Tree
Utility/CC Tree

Except that the problem with Chosen is that you can do the Crippling Strikes "2H" build with a SnB and Blastwave without losing much potency and gaining way more survivability.

[roadkillrobin]

Blastwave has 20 sec CD. You really gonna slot CS for an abillty that procs unrelibly every 20 sec??
No you slot it for Rending Blade coz 1: It's undefendble 2: it has short CD making it relieble.