Balancing Order Tanks

[Gerv]

Another way to look at it, could be to change Long Reach or Overprotective to add a snare component to Rune-Etched Axe. Kinda like the BO. 5-10s snare on REA, and 10s snare on Earthshatter. Close to perma snare but with 2 abilities and a tactic sounds more appropriate imo.
I kinda agree on the punt though. Just a tad bit stronger would do the trick.

Looking at the tactics you suggested, I am not sure what are the current standard 2hd IB and S+B tactics but could Long Reach be edited to add a snare 2 additional, closest enemies, for 10 seconds. I like here this is heading. What tactics are manditory and would this throw out the IB 2h damage capability?

Comparing the Buff values doesn't give the whole picture, since Aura's provide an AoE debuff as well.
I don't believe the classes or mechanics themselves are Broken, it's simply the ease of which you can utilize them that is.

Yep, Knight mechanic is easy, there is nothing I can propose about that though, and I dont think there is any capacity to make it function like original without people resorting to Twister. The debuff action of the Aura is addressed by the SM change from the 1.4.9 patch notes which esentialy does the same thing, 25% chance on mele is a non issue, the only downside the the randomness. Or do you think otherwise Dabbart?

Spoiler:

I don't like the fundamental concept of auras as something that can't be countered only their effects mitigated. I think this bad design and should be reworked. I believe there were already mulitple proposal on what to do with them.

Some comments though. With the current gear level you cant introduce a flat 160 stat steal. This would completely break the balance due to the nonlinear scaling of your chance of being critically hit at low initiative values. To put into perspective some classes only have 123 base initiative at 40.
So you would need a different value for initiative or exclude it entirely form nature's blade procs.

I disagree with your conclusion that heaven's blade (SM resis debuff) is not considered. We actually use it most of the time. However it's a setup related choice. For a melee train grp you probably prefer nature's blade.

Unfortunately, I don't know what to do about the aura system but all the proposals regarding this have been rejected. Hmm I see your point on initiative and agree, there should be a varied value for initiative, maybe if possible leave it at what it is, base of 75 points. I believe the remaining stat points can be reduced by 160 as these are not far off what the knight currently does.
I agree with you on the set-up related choice for the SM and Hevens Blade, I was not aiming to discount it. What I wanted to get across is that the Knight, can, and does, to an extent do the job of the SMs resist debuff though not as well, another reasons not to take a SM.

Chosen and knights are going to have some work done on them soon anyway mate. They need a hit with the nerfhammer

Will the tanks all be adjusted in tandem or will Chosen and Knight be adjusted in isolation?

** Do players think these changes discussed are moving the tanks in the right direction?

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

Yep, Knight mechanic is easy, there is nothing I can propose about that though, and I dont think there is any capacity to make it function like original without people resorting to Twister. The debuff action of the Aura is addressed by the SM change from the 1.4.9 patch notes which esentialy does the same thing, 25% chance on mele is a non issue, the only downside the the randomness. Or do you think otherwise Dabbart?

I do actually. Ignoring the randomness of it(for which you get a different type of benefit, IE you can debuff stats that knight/chosen can't with 1 ability), as well as the various options for Auras(Blade Enchantments don't offer the same level of choice). It requires you do be in combat, 25% proc rate, requires a Hit, and It has an end timer(10s).

The main differences being, the SM has to be in combat actively attacking. The knight/chosen can sit and HTL over their backline and receive full benefits from Aura's(obviously, not the Debuff). That is what I wish to see changed. One should have to actively do something to provide that much of a benefit/debuff.

This ignores duel chosen/knight groups stacking up to 6(different) auras.

As I said, there are so many levels of OPness to Aura's, that is hard to make any sort of comparisons. Which is why I want to see Aura range/power be dependant upon actually doing stuff. But who knows. Sounds like the Devs already have an idea for what they're gonna do.

Another option would be to "randomize" the Aura's. For instance; you select up to 5 Auras(random chosen number, it can be 3 or 2 or all Aura's you have unlocked) and you randomly Cycle through your aura's with each ability you use. In an effort to limit the str of these things however, I would limit it to 2 Auras up at 1 time maximum. Or who knows. I can think of half a dozen different ways to limit and but not castrate Knight/chosen aura's, but it is all determinable by A, what the Devs see as the proper steps forward, and B, what is actually possible to code, even with patcher ability.

EDIT: maybe I misread you, and am arguing the exact same point Gerv...

[TenTonHammer]

Here's the problem with your suggestions

Because apparently the original devs felt that RUN AWAY! Was the most op thing ever after they made it and so order already a large amount of cc on their side and the last thing the faction needs tbt is access to more cc

[Panzerkasper]

Spoiler:

Yep, Knight mechanic is easy, there is nothing I can propose about that though, and I dont think there is any capacity to make it function like original without people resorting to Twister. The debuff action of the Aura is addressed by the SM change from the 1.4.9 patch notes which esentialy does the same thing, 25% chance on mele is a non issue, the only downside the the randomness. Or do you think otherwise Dabbart?

I do actually. Ignoring the randomness of it(for which you get a different type of benefit, IE you can debuff stats that knight/chosen can't with 1 ability), as well as the various options for Auras(Blade Enchantments don't offer the same level of choice). It requires you do be in combat, 25% proc rate, requires a Hit, and It has an end timer(10s).

The main differences being, the SM has to be in combat actively attacking. The knight/chosen can sit and HTL over their backline and receive full benefits from Aura's(obviously, not the Debuff). That is what I wish to see changed. One should have to actively do something to provide that much of a benefit/debuff.

This ignores duel chosen/knight groups stacking up to 6(different) auras.

As I said, there are so many levels of OPness to Aura's, that is hard to make any sort of comparisons. Which is why I want to see Aura range/power be dependant upon actually doing stuff. But who knows. Sounds like the Devs already have an idea for what they're gonna do.

Another option would be to "randomize" the Aura's. For instance; you select up to 5 Auras(random chosen number, it can be 3 or 2 or all Aura's you have unlocked) and you randomly Cycle through your aura's with each ability you use. In an effort to limit the str of these things however, I would limit it to 2 Auras up at 1 time maximum. Or who knows. I can think of half a dozen different ways to limit and but not castrate Knight/chosen aura's, but it is all determinable by A, what the Devs see as the proper steps forward, and B, what is actually possible to code, even with patcher ability.

EDIT: maybe I misread you, and am arguing the exact same point Gerv...

So pls explain to me what does the concept of auras make it so much more "OP" to a single button press buff by a shammy/AM or whatever buff you want? Only the fact that he has to press a button once in while? Seriously?

[Gerv]

I do actually. Ignoring the randomness of it(for which you get a different type of benefit, IE you can debuff stats that knight/chosen can't with 1 ability), as well as the various options for Auras(Blade Enchantments don't offer the same level of choice). It requires you do be in combat, 25% proc rate, requires a Hit, and It has an end timer(10s).

So, do you think that the function of Natures Blade needs to be changed to bring the SM in-line/equally competitive with the Knight or do you just believe that the Knight needs toning down?

I have seen many SM players not have an issue with the proc rate once a fight gets started however I do recognise the inherent disadvantage a SM faces at the start of a fight with the random stat stolen and the non instantaneous buff/debuff.

Spoiler:

The main differences being, the SM has to be in combat actively attacking. The knight/chosen can sit and HTL over their backline and receive full benefits from Aura's(obviously, not the Debuff). That is what I wish to see changed. One should have to actively do something to provide that much of a benefit/debuff.

This ignores duel chosen/knight groups stacking up to 6(different) auras.

As I said, there are so many levels of OPness to Aura's, that is hard to make any sort of comparisons. Which is why I want to see Aura range/power be dependant upon actually doing stuff. But who knows. Sounds like the Devs already have an idea for what they're gonna do.

Another option would be to "randomize" the Aura's. For instance; you select up to 5 Auras(random chosen number, it can be 3 or 2 or all Aura's you have unlocked) and you randomly Cycle through your aura's with each ability you use. In an effort to limit the str of these things however, I would limit it to 2 Auras up at 1 time maximum. Or who knows. I can think of half a dozen different ways to limit and but not castrate Knight/chosen aura's, but it is all determinable by A, what the Devs see as the proper steps forward, and B, what is actually possible to code, even with patcher ability.

EDIT: maybe I misread you, and am arguing the exact same point Gerv...

Ultimately I am trying to find a way to move the knight from the top do spot and create a environment where the other tanks are worthy options and groups are not dependent on a Knight. That is why the majority of my ideas focused around addressing the group utility I believe central to a group that the knight provides so there are other options. Because, even if the mechanic were to change, if you leave the inherrent values and core utility the same and just change the mechanic, I don't think you will remove the knight as top dog.

Thinking out loud about the mechanic, you are right, its all speculation until we hear what the devs have planned. But, what if you tied the given auras to abilities in the respective trees that they come from, adding a 10 sec duration to the aura effect?
However, I think this would screw with any form of existing knight 2h dps 'rotation' of abilities.

[Gerv]

Here's the problem with your suggestions

Because apparently the original devs felt that RUN AWAY! Was the most op thing ever after they made it and so order already a large amount of cc on their side and the last thing the faction needs tbt is access to more cc

I acknowledge that this is only addressing one realm. I do not believe this should be done in isolation of the destruction side. I posted originally that this may help identify how to address the issue of the Chosen being a manditory selection as well in premade / serious group play. However I happily concede that I do not have the knowledge of destruction tanks to even begin to unfold that realms tank hierarchy.

[Eathisword]

Looking at the tactics you suggested, I am not sure what are the current standard 2hd IB and S+B tactics but could Long Reach be edited to add a snare 2 additional, closest enemies, for 10 seconds. I like here this is heading. What tactics are manditory and would this throw out the IB 2h damage capability?

No idea what people run tbh. I run Armor, toughness, crit and grudge increase. Or, armor, toughness, heal debuff, reduce crit damage. Depending on whether i wanna go offensive or defensive. Tbh, when gear goes up, the armor tactic will become less and less useful and open a spot in both of my spec to use more utility/damage/defense.

Rune-Etched Axe has little use atm. Its a low AoE with no effects. Overprotective is useless, completely, imo and is in the same mastery tree as REA. Long-Reach is already binded to REA which is useless so its also useless atm. Changing them would somewhat make sense. But as I said, not to a perma snare effect. 50% uptime AoE snare on a short 10s CD is plenty enough.

Otherwise, I agree with Toldvaf, IB are probably the best all around balanced tank. Sadly, in a state of game where extreme dominates, a greatly balanced utility/damage/defense tank has little place. SM are picked in offensive setup and knights in defensive ones.

The problem is not changing IB, its changing the OP extreme stuff other tanks have. Perma AoE snare should go. It makes fight slow and boring. So knight and BO should lose it, 50% uptime is enough as we can perma ST snare. Tank should need to learn to snare with ST instead of relying on perma AoE bs. Aura are trivial and should change. SM/BO damage will eventually go down i believe. And then things could become more open for different comp.

[Toldavf]

Rune etched axe never had much use its always hit like a wet noodle due to its meh tool tip. Ofc the reason for this is clear as nobody wants a tank with aoe torment XD. That said i do think its damage could be buffed slightly.

[Gerv]

An interesting approach. Removing the AoE snare would make fights again more chaotic. Would you remove the AoE snares completely or just tone them down to 50% up-time?
If complete removal, why do you think so?

Of course auras are trivial, the whole mechanic is trivial as Dabbart has pointed out and for what is commonly known. If you don't edit the super punt to give it too another class how do you propose to displace the knight as the only class to temporarily remove guard or would you tone that down as well?

The issue I see with toning down is that you would need to push extreme damage even more to be able to push through guard with moral drop. Do you think there are other options to kill through guard? **I will edit this once I think more about it tomorrow as I am about to sleep.

SM damage will go down because the resit values will increase and the resist debuff from the SM is essentially at its highest due to mastery tree scaling. Which will be a more excessive reduction the Bo or SM, hard to say, depends which, of resists or armor increases at a greater rate with later gear sets.

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

So pls explain to me what does the concept of auras make it so much more "OP" to a single button press buff by a shammy/AM or whatever buff you want? Only the fact that he has to press a button once in while? Seriously?

Shammy/AM only have 1 Choice(resis) which is covered by multiple other classes, Z/RP buffs can be shattered/removed. Aura's are innately OP for these reasons, IMO obviously.

1. 100% uptime, zero maintenance(GCD) required.
2. Unremoveable buff/debuff(other than killing the Knight, moving out of range)
3. Large selection to choose from, which accomodates stacking the same Tank twice in Groups(no other class types "stack" so well with each other, other than WP/DoK which are equally considered OP and being targetted by the Devs
4. Ease to switch between aura sets while in Combat. Again, no requirements(1GCD to swap).
5. No other class provides the same level of benefit in /follow. Not an insult in any way, but the sheer level of group power and utility these classes provide while AFK.

That is in a nutshell why I consider Auras to be OP. And I played a Knight on this server for quite a while.

Spoiler:

So, do you think that the function of Natures Blade needs to be changed to bring the SM in-line/equally competitive with the Knight or do you just believe that the Knight needs toning down?

I have seen many SM players not have an issue with the proc rate once a fight gets started however I do recognise the inherent disadvantage a SM faces at the start of a fight with the random stat stolen and the non instantaneous buff/debuff.

I was actually speaking more in terms of Kiting, while being CCd out of combat, swaping guard, etc. I don't have any real experience with SM, so I wont argue for a buff or debuff towards them at all. I wouldn't suggest tweaking other classes to better be balanced towards an imbalanced class ability. I like to look at other class mechanics, and draw inspiration from that. The Aura's need either; A direct Counter, or a need to expend GcDs in melee to empower them.

none of this ultimately has anything to do with how Aura's make so many class buffs and potions irrelevant.

Spoiler:

Ultimately I am trying to find a way to move the knight from the top do spot and create a environment where the other tanks are worthy options and groups are not dependent on a Knight. That is why the majority of my ideas focused around addressing the group utility I believe central to a group that the knight provides so there are other options. Because, even if the mechanic were to change, if you leave the inherrent values and core utility the same and just change the mechanic, I don't think you will remove the knight as top dog.

Thinking out loud about the mechanic, you are right, its all speculation until we hear what the devs have planned. But, what if you tied the given auras to abilities in the respective trees that they come from, adding a 10 sec duration to the aura effect?
However, I think this would screw with any form of existing knight 2h dps 'rotation' of abilities.

That could work. Balancing each Aura to an ability would be maddening however. In my mind, if you wanted to accomplish your goal, I would think about how the knights/Chosen balance against the Other tanks w/o ANY aura's. Maybe the "fix" is to break Aura's as they stand, and replace them with Auras that Proc on attack, reduce the buff/debuff strength drastically, and allow them to stack with other non-knight/chosen Auras(Or not, I have no idea what the thoughts are on fixing the redundancy of so many buff/debuff abilities).

But imo, if you broke all ability score Aura's today, people would still want knights/chosen in groups over most other tanks. I could be wrong.


Edit: I hate Punts in all forms. I would replace all Super Punts with a Short ranged punt that applied an unbreakable stagger in duration different per tank. I just dislike the mechanic that allows so much inherent Griefing that is almost entirely latency based at times.

in terms of Knight/Chosen on Super punt, it costs a Tactic, the issue is that the CD needs stay at 20s.

The Guard issue is entirely seperate imo.