[Review] Guard at Level 5

[Pumatouch]

mathematical exploit/issues with guarding and pre lvl10 bolstering... It would be good to teach tanks the importance of guarding from the start.

Side note: Should we also give WH/WEs their stealth at lvl 1 as well?

Wargrim said lvl 5 is approriate in terms of Bolster; this is aggreable. This proposal is not about teaching people to play archtype, but to make that archtype gameplay available in the first place, as soon as possible. What tanks choose to do/not do with it is their own business. Guarding/Tanking is the archtype defining feature. For a Healer archtype, the equivalent would not be Resurrection, as one have argued, but the healing abilities they already posses in appropriate amounts for their levels. As such the Healer archtype gameplay is in effect from level 1. The tank archtype gameplay is not. Whether or not Stealth falls in the same category is not my table; it might.

Guard ablity is only an one side of “tanking”... So why not give them all those “tanking” things at level 1 like taunt, challenge and punt which really improve tanks’ gameplay and make it really fun. I believe everything should be given in right time.
Snare is also a very important thing for tanking (which most of tanks underrate sadly) but every tank has different level requirements to get it. Same goes for punt - it is very important too.

The emphasis in this statement should be on "improve tank's gameplay" The emphasis of the proposal is to unlock the tank gameplay in the first place by releasing the core ability.

A possible counterargument to giving tanks their guard (or, indeed, WH/WE stealth at level 1) is that putting it at level 10 gives the player something to fight/strive for; a sense of achievement.

There is much more sense of acchievement in every second of pulling your own weight, the way you are supposed to.

We all know this game is about group compositions; the 2/2/2 and its variations, or the simplified 3man. In current game, this setup is not acchievable pre-level 10. Group dynamics are incomplete as a result. What we all strive to do, Teamwork, is effectively cut off the menu, and that is the major concern and ultimate reason for this proposal.

Balancing: It has been mentioned that the limited scope of abilities will likely prevent guarded healers from reaching God Mode, and that both sides will receive same treatment. So far so good. One issue raised that might in fact cause trouble is the fact that hard CC like Knockbacks are missing in T1; splitting guard targets can prove very difficult indeed. A counterproposal will follow. However let it also be noted that, as Dabbart pointed out, tanks will have limited mitigation from Block and Parry; more damage will come through to the receiving tank, amounting to increased pressure than what we are used to in later Tiers.

Potential further proposal to compensate for lack of CC in Tier 1: Guard ability offers 35% damage reduction only, climbing to the full 50% at level 10.

[Toldavf]

In the end its not really a game balance issue. There is nothing imbalanced about tanks having guard at level 5 other than the fact they will have poor avoidance and so most likely will die more then they would of at 10.

I would be ok if it happened but i wouldn't say it was vastly needed or even needed at all.

[Pumatouch]

Issue
When making a tank character, one has to go for 10 levels without performing ones core archtype ability at all. The concept "Tank" is not implemented properly as a result, pre 10th level.

Solution
Pretty straight forward; give all tank characters the Guard ability from level 1.

*Edited from 1 to 5 with consent of Arthur

Every class-role begins to be defined at rank 10. Rez, stealth, charge and Guard. What makes a tank diferent?

"When making an Assassin character, one has to go for 10 levels without performing ones core archtype ability at all(stealth). The concept "Assassin" is not implemented properly as a result, pre 10th level"

Lets say a new player decides to play a tank and uses "Guard".
- Why am i dying so fast? This "guard" is killing me, im not going to use it again. *removes "guard"*

You must learn to walk before you can run

I thought I done adressed all issues, but you went ahead and edited. The edit is about Player Ignorance. That is not a valid consideration at all. Even if we did consider it, said scenario might as well occur at level 10.

[catholicism198]

Spoiler:

On the other hand, what Lucca said about unkillable healers is probably what will happen. Can you imagine double guard in t1? Perhaps there's a way to kind of 'level' up guard as the character lvls up, giving it more damage reduction. But this is something else to think about I guess.

You can already have two level 10+ tanks guarding 1 healer in T1 and it hasn't been an issue so far.

...but there are usually significantly less r10+ tanks running around than there are r5+ tanks- you also have to consider the fact that only 1 class (per faction) has a viable healing debuff in t1.
I've always seen it as "something to look forward to," much like resurrecting players, group heals, and WE/WH stealth- all of which are also "core abilities."
Making it accessible at r5 would only benefit those small roam groups, since the majority of t1 is either going back and forth in Nordland or sitting on BOs.

Rule 5

[Pumatouch]

On the other hand, what Lucca said about unkillable healers is probably what will happen. Can you imagine double guard in t1? Perhaps there's a way to kind of 'level' up guard as the character lvls up, giving it more damage reduction. But this is something else to think about I guess.

You can already have two level 10+ tanks guarding 1 healer in T1 and it hasn't been an issue so far.

...but there are usually significantly less r10+ tanks running around than there are r5+ tanks- you also have to consider the fact that only 1 class (per faction) has a viable healing debuff in t1.
I've always seen it as "something to look forward to," much like resurrecting players, group heals, and WE/WH stealth- all of which are also "core abilities."
Making it accessible at r5 would only benefit those small roam groups, since the majority of t1 is either going back and forth in Nordland or sitting on BOs.

What I look forward to is playing the game as it should be done; Tank, Healer, Damage. The Tank is missing pre-level 10. Simple as that.
Whom this will benefit is entirely up to each individual player. If poor grouping is to blame for T1 marathons, then the fault generally lies with the players in question, not the game.

Spoiler:

Git Gud

[Telperien]

Lets imagine a new player rolls a tank, and see long tooltip of Guard ability. I`m sure guard is unigue ability for RoR/AoR and really understanding its usefulness and meaningness is more important than simply having it on skillbar. I understand there is no client control so there cant be done any moderations to game tutorials but is there any way to let new player get to know how really Guard works and what benefits it bring? Scenario score showing "guarded" dmg? Increase of renown income from only Guard ability? A simple quest in T1 warcamp to be completed with guard ability use?

[catholicism198]

This game is all about character progression- i.e. things to look forward to.

[ragafury]

think overall it's a bad idea / waste of recources / redundant and I agree more with the fleshed out negative points made in the topic than the "positive" ones. overall it wouldn't affect T1 at all.

the main issue is for me.

it's not like we are talking about giving mara or wl pull (CR40 abilites) to CR5 chars but giving guard (CR10 ability) to level 5 chars.
The difference in invested gameplay / ingame time are 1 - 5 hours, depending on personal experience, player aims etc. which is quite redundant tbh.

the tank archetype will still only barely be in place for both sc gameplay or warband gameplay.
- taunt CR7
- Challenge CR20
- AoE roots CR30
- KDs burried in the mastery trees on 4/6 tanks
- punts CR unlocks range widely from BO CR18, Chosen CR16 (tactic CR 36), BG CR 25, IB CR 14, SM CR 16, kotbs CR16 (tactic CR36) and so on.

all the education and training arguments are totally invalid.
those are player (lack of education in general with the game mechanics or general selfish gameplay) made, and homemade from the community (lack of content, startingpoints and guides overall, especially in written form with good formatting).


also at CR 5 guard is even less backuped by avoid stats to actually support it than on level 10.
At CR10 you could at least have Defender 3 or Reflexes 3 as examples.
At CR5 you have acces to Reflexes 2 and very limited access to gear in general.

The exception to this all is SM with eagles flight which he got acess to in T1 (again negligible for the discussion), all other tanks avoid buffs and avoid channels which help with guard dmg are way deeper down the line.

new players will be busy learning the game basics, indentifying what's killing them, where to get gear, where to level, trying out classes and inspect what opposition classes can do etc; while old players just go for level 10 and guard or not, cause they don't lack information about skills and unlocks.

so overall, I don't see a real profit or gain.

edit:
my suggestions is: waiting for client control and replacing the sometimes very useless and not really tailored "tips" to player made suggestions.

[Luuca]

As it sits now, I like the following suggestions but have some concerns:

Assumption: Guard Available at level 5.
Issue: Mitigation is low on Level 5 tanks and may cause playability issues/lack of use
Solution: Scale Guard to 35% of damage at Level 5

Concerns:
1. Can the Devs scale Guard percentage now for in T1? Or do we need client control for this?
2. Base 35% until Level 10 seems stagnant and at Level 5 may still be too much.

Suggestion:
If Client Control is not necessary for incremental % changes to Guard mitigation
1. Start Guard at Level 5 with a 25% mitigation.
2. Increase Mitigation percentage by 5% at each level over Level 5 to a max of 50% at level 10.

Example:
5=25%
6=30%
7=35%
8=40%
9=45%
10=50%

In this way, the base Guard ability and damage from the Guard increases with level. It does not diminish the usefulness of the Tank ability, and allows Tanks, dps and support healers to walk into the damage/mitigation as opposed to a stagnant rate with a large jump at 10.

[Pumatouch]

the tank archetype will still only barely be in place for both sc gameplay or warband gameplay.
- taunt CR7
- Challenge CR20
- AoE roots CR30
- KDs burried in the mastery trees on 4/6 tanks
- punts CR unlocks range widely from BO CR18, Chosen CR16 (tactic CR 36), BG CR 25, IB CR 14, SM CR 16, kotbs CR16 (tactic CR36) and so on.

The Tank archtype becomes "unlocked" with Guard, hence its importance. The rest are complimentary abilities, as noted previously.

all the education and training arguments are totally invalid.

Agreed.

also at CR 5 guard is even less backuped by avoid stats to actually support it than on level 10.
At CR10 you could at least have Defender 3 or Reflexes 3 as examples.
At CR5 you have acces to Reflexes 2 and very limited access to gear in general.

All this merely testifies to the fact that Tanks guarding at level 5 will not be completely over-the-top OP.

new players will be busy learning the game basics, indentifying what's killing them, where to get gear, where to level, trying out classes and inspect what opposition classes can do etc; while old players just go for level 10 and guard or not, cause they don't lack information about skills and unlocks.

We just agreed all the education and training arguments were invalid. New players/Old players, I will not consider it a valid point of argument.

think overall it's a bad idea / waste of recources / redundant and I agree more with the fleshed out negative points made in the topic than the "positive" ones. overall it wouldn't affect T1 at all.

Way to shoot it down in the first phrase. I will wait for Staff to decide what is worthwhile or waste of resources. If T1 is not affected adversely, great. If it opens up for Tanks committing to their archtype 5 levels ahead of current game, doubly great.

edit:
my suggestions is: waiting for client control and replacing the sometimes very useless and not really tailored "tips" to player made suggestions.

Tooltips have nothing to do with the issue at hand; 1 singular archtype core ability absent from the game for 10 levels. Stay on topic.