Tzeentch's Firestorm

[Tesq]

Yes this is the exact mentality of what i was talking about, "change will always be crap" is bullshit, change mastery need some love in form of chirurgical fix if you dont want contribuite go elsewhere; its in plain sight to me that those changes were done from a perspective of havoc magus....especially regarding the part of change will always be crap in mind..

At least till the aim of the game is make classes viable on all masterys i can stii talk for mid mastery sake.

About personal attack yes, the best form of arguments from those without arguments.

Indigo swap with firestorm was presented into a mid mastery buff, it isnt; it just indirectly buffed havoc, it dosent matter how and for how much , thats what happened, that what's presented as a buff for change....but it didnt work like that.

[Renork]

Yes this is the exact mentality of what i was talking about, "change will always be crap" is bullshit, change mastery need some love in form of chirurgical fix if you dont want contribuite go elsewhere; its in plain sight to me that those changes were done from a perspective of havoc magus....especially regarding the part of change will always be crap in mind..

At least till the aim of the game is make classes viable on all masterys i can stii talk for mid mastery sake.

About personal attack yes, the best form of arguments from those without arguments.

Indigo swap with firestorm was presented into a mid mastery buff, it isnt; it just indirectly buffed havoc, it dosent matter how and for how much , thats what happened, that what's presented as a buff for change....but it didnt work like that.

Your paper version of ROR doesn't translate well in-game and it never will. The change was a simply swap, I didn't see any notes from Azarael stating "HEY GUYS, HUGE BUFF TO THE CHANGE TREE! WE ARE SWAPPING THESE TWO SKILLS TO MAKE CHANGE SO MUCH MORE VIABLE". You now have a middle tree with "mid-range" skills, which is why firestorm was swapped. If it wasn't to your "liking", uh so sorry but too bad? If you can't see why tweaking this tree is hard, then that really is on you and no one else.

[Tesq]

It is not hard it wasnt even be tried hard enough, we had wl guardian for months.....a full rewamp which was given to a class with 2 alredy st mastery instaed fix his aoe problem and change /gran were not even tried buff dmg or give some good cc/ like rkd or heal debuff... instead it was said no to any proposals ....they had too much was the reply... your can image the frustration when the a internal change is done but balance proposals get reject for no reason or for false reasons.

The swap was presented by some ppl as if they know the reason for the swap and as if those new places/locations for skills would had be good and benefith more change like:

-indigo was not good there, firestorm is better for change
-the skills put like this make more sense for both mastery
-change dont need st (....sigh...)

[Darks63]

Undoing the 1.31 nerfs to glean/acid and panda/frag would be a good start for helping the change/gren paths. Those dots suffered a 40% reduction in damage the great aoe nerf.

The problem with aoe dots is that they either underperform (currently) or they overperform. This server is mostly about zerg play and pug play (which is fine), so you can't make the dots too powerful or you'll just create a big mess (whines included). Balancing dots is just very hard, while adding utility would be easier (still a lot of work).

The issue with that is that Glean/Acid already have utility they're just surpassed by chosen/knight aura. So all you have left is a nuisance dot that is only good for the magus/engie to tag people for dem sexy 1 renown tics when someone else kills em. The issue with Panda/Frag is that what kind of utility do you give it that isn't already provided by better classes? Another issue is that its an easily spammable aoe dot so it can't be anything too strong or it would be worse than if they just boosted the damage.

[Orontes]

@Orontes

I don't see how lowering the CD back down to 10s will do anything for you, other than allowing you to fully channel it and recast it right away again, which is typically done when you're attacking/defending a keep. I don't see it as necessary because the tree is still pretty much garbage even with that change, but I will agree that there is nothing overpowered about lowering the CD by 6 seconds with the tactic slotted. If firestorm stacked with others storms, then sure.. but it doesn't..so~

I don't think Firestorm with the cooldown applied was overpowered. The claim that it was begs the question, particularly as there aren't any mass of threads complaining about it. As you note, it never stacked and people could and can always simply move.

My guess was that when the ability swap was done, it wasn't noticed that Chaos Unleashed had the cooldown for Firestorm, so nothing was done to Wild Changing. If that's wrong the removal seems arbitrary.

I agree with you that most of the times I see Firestorm being used is around keep actions, the same way I see Pit of Shades or Rain of Fire being used. In that vein, I don't see any reason the crappy Changing Mastery should have a weakened Firestorm. Allowing Change Magi to put out sustained layered damage by combining Mist with Firestorm seems like a good thing to me. The Mastery line is basically rubbish, so until some grand plan for Changing and Grenadier arrives, why shouldn't the Change Magi have some help? To that point: I don't think it follows that because everything can't be done, nothing should be done. Swapping the two abilities is fine, it makes thematic sense, but allow Firestorm to perform as it has previously for those Change Magi that put the mastery points into it.

You're going to have to convince Aza on that one, but I will agree that there is nothing overpowered about it (just another way to leech or be useful in keep defense). The problem is people like Tesq (not just Tesq of course, that's why I added "people") said OMG STORM + MIST + RIFT = INSTAGIB EVERYTHING HELP GG DESTRO BROKE THE GAME... which is...not the case at all. So, since everyone prefers to throw numbers out of their ass or play the "theorycraft" game instead of ACTUALLY testing, then apparently storm is now overpowered based on word of mouth, lol. It makes no difference to me whether it's 16CD or 10CD, so I'm not going to entertain a mindless back and forth to try to justify the change :^) but I'll support you if needed though.

Cheers. I'm actually rather surprised this became an issue. It seems straight forward to me. Why give a weakened Firestorm ability ( that was never an issue on the forums in its immediately prior state) to the weakest mastery line? I thought it was a simple error during the ability swap. Aza seems like an honest and conscientious person dedicated to the project. I hope he agrees.

[Nidwin]

Why do you compare Tzeentch's Firestorm with Pit of Shades @Orontes? (don't play BW so no idea about Rain of Fire)
Is it cry baby mode, I don't want my not well balanced Tornado of doom properly being balanced vs other similar existing skills?

I compare Firestorm with Pit of Shades because they both are AOE tied to a chosen spot. Shadow Knives is target specific.

Fair, my mistake and I shouldn't have written that cry baby stuff, sorry Orontes.
I still prefer to compare as skill, Tzeentch's Firestorm with Shadow Knives and not with Pit of Shades. But I don't think there's a need to argue about this as this doesn't resolve the Path of Changing issues.

[Nidwin]

firestorm there is only usefull for deamonology at rr 70 and is good at it.

No Tesq, it's not usefull for daemonology gameplay. I specced/took it because I had nothing else to put points into. It does give me something (a skill) to use during keep siege or defense but that's it. It doesn't add anything to daemonology gameplay.

As I already wrote before, you don't use TF in a rift rotation and certainly not mist who's too expensive Mastery Points wise.
1. Chaotic Rift has already a snare (at least should have as it's always hard to tell if it works or not)
2. GCD is around 1.1 on RoR so 2x Lash > 1 tic from TF for damage. With lash spam you're not bonded to 6s channeling. It's not impossible but it's going to be hard to pull of a 6s channeling in melee after a Chaotic Rift.

Daemonology is a melee tree and trying to pull a 6s chenneling in melee is pointless with all the wb/zerg flying controlled or random cc's.

But you're right about one thing Tesq. We need to be carefull to not indirectly buff the Daemonology tree by buffing the Changing tree. What can be used at range could also be used in melee.

[Tesq]

From any view you see it that is a buff to deamonology, even if the swap allow to make diss mist more accessable in pull builds easily by have more points to spend generaly that is a buff to deamonology. Because the whole build for diss mist and pull was rr70 and you had only 1 spare point left, now is 4 points ; so even by skip storm the same build have 3 pt more..

Change didnt benefith from this if the aim was buff change as it was presented....

[Telen]

Switching IFoC with Firestorm (with no cd removal) is a much bigger buff to havoc, which didnt need it, than it is anything to changing. which did.

[chazwozza]

Some of us built our char around this particular skill and now its gone make playing pretty pointless.
It was fun but very situational
Running about in a WB casting crap dots that can be cleaned is just pants and no real fun as you don't really feel that you have achieved anything