[SUGGESTION] Magus/Engi Changes for the interim...

[Renork]

the 5 second cooldown seems to be fair while i hardly disagree to see a tactic ingame which is basically a mirror of piercing bite for rdps classes. rdps classes got such a edge in open world pvp anyway and it's not like we got TB or insane high armor values like we had on live. magus has an insane burst potential in t4 and engi got his m2. what you will come up with is a second version of fester and that's something the whole community rates as dumb game design.

5 second cd & stagger increase are fine. magus doesn't need a hard buff in t4 and i'm not sure if the engi will need one. imho we should wait out to see what's happening in the endgame before any changes are made to prevent implementing something which will become borderline broken.

i already made a suggestion way back when i played my magus about what things could be changed and the main problem for me is the pet. it's utter garbage since the warhammer pvp is not stationary. increase the attack range to maybe 120-150 feet and increase the range for the % dmg passive to 65 feet. this will allow the magus to profit from his pet and his passive without standing still at one point. the dmg buff is a feature which he can barely use atm outside of keep fights. also you could decrease the general CD for pets to 5 seconds cause he hardly relies on the resistance debuff. same counts for engi!

Hell just froze over. I'm going to actually agree with one of ROR's elite and ultimate god players for a change~


Just one thing, you overly exaggerated the whole "magus has insane burst potential". That is simply not true, especially if we're talking rr80 cap WITHOUT lotd.

[Warpes]

Both Magus/Engi are fine in T3 and T4 as far as I'm concerned, if anything certain other classes need nerfing instead, to balance the game out. But if changes were to be made, I feel like some of the ideas in this thread are going in the entirely wrong direction for them. And I'll explain why before posting my own ideas...


Bolt of Change/Snipe: For one, both of these are already the furthest range of any ability, completely undefendable, AND have extremely high base damage - making them two of the hardest hitting abilities in the game.
On T4 live, with ST pet resist debuff and warpforge procs (another issue for later) I was hitting upwards of 4.5k crits with BoC alone sometimes, and with unshakable focus Snipe is capable of at least that much (sometimes 6k hits).

But this was just a part of my whole burst rotation(s), which is one of many things I feel like the large majority of Magus/Engi players greatly failed on understanding. And also failed to understand that to optimize Magi/Engi burst (not talking rift/aoe spam) they should be played 'mostly' as "frontline casters" (or back and forth + kiting, to be precise), utilizing Close Quarters/ES tactic.

IMO focusing on individual abilities is the wrong way to go, particularly that of BoC/Snipe. Rather focus all abilities, mechanics, and rotations which compliment them and eachother... and promote people using FULL dot + burst rotations, rather than trying to "Snipe" (ironcally) a kill on someone already being focused.


Indigo Fire of Change: I believe it's perfect where it is at 9pts. Especially if you consider that in T3 all class builds are limited to a certain degree, and in T4 any build that would include it can already reach that point easily. But I could still see potentially swapping them, if IFoC is NOT nerfed in any way. Rather, buff Seed of Change/Sticky Bomb perhaps (buff these anyway IMO).

Firestorm/Phos Shell: I'm in agreement with adding damage or a side effect to these, like the one mentioned or something similar. However leave them in their current trees (as per your original post, before edit)...
The reason being that a Magi/Engi should be focusing on BOTH AoE AND ST at the same time, never one or the other. While AoEing they should be focusing on their ST focus, and vice versa, applying multiple kinds of pressure at once (including the need to cleanse), which healers have a harder time reacting to. Once the burst starts, it's particularly hard to react.

I'll post my own consolidated thoughts/ideas in a seperate reply.

TLDR: BoC/Snipe are more than fine, fix other core issues instead, as mentioned above - like dot dmg, pet dmg, and certain mechanics/debuffs as ill post next.

[TenTonHammer]

dont bother mentioning arguments that mention df/wf

they are irrelevent here in RoR

[peterthepan3]

Both Magus/Engi are fine in T3 and T4 as far as I'm concerned, if anything certain other classes need nerfing instead, to balance the game out. But if changes were to be made, I feel like some of the ideas in this thread are going in the entirely wrong direction for them. And I'll explain why before posting my own ideas...


Bolt of Change/Snipe: For one, both of these are already the furthest range of any ability, completely undefendable, AND have extremely high base damage - making them two of the hardest hitting abilities in the game.
On T4 live, with ST pet resist debuff and warpforge procs (another issue for later) I was hitting upwards of 4.5k crits with BoC alone sometimes, and with unshakable focus Snipe is capable of at least that much (sometimes 6k hits).

But this was just a part of my whole burst rotation(s), which is one of many things I feel like the large majority of Magus/Engi players greatly failed on understanding. And also failed to understand that to optimize Magi/Engi burst (not talking rift/aoe spam) they should be played 'mostly' as "frontline casters" (or back and forth + kiting, to be precise), utilizing Close Quarters/ES tactic.

IMO focusing on individual abilities is the wrong way to go, particularly that of BoC/Snipe. Rather focus all abilities, mechanics, and rotations which compliment them and eachother... and promote people using FULL dot + burst rotations, rather than trying to "Snipe" (ironcally) a kill on someone already being focused.


Indigo Fire of Change: I believe it's perfect where it is at 9pts. Especially if you consider that in T3 all class builds are limited to a certain degree, and in T4 any build that would include it can already reach that point easily. But I could still see potentially swapping them, if IFoC is NOT nerfed in any way. Rather, buff Seed of Change/Sticky Bomb perhaps (buff these anyway IMO).

Firestorm/Phos Shell: I'm in agreement with adding damage or a side effect to these, like the one mentioned or something similar. However leave them in their current trees (as per your original post, before edit)...
The reason being that a Magi/Engi should be focusing on BOTH AoE AND ST at the same time, never one or the other. While AoEing they should be focusing on their ST focus, and vice versa, applying multiple kinds of pressure at once (including the need to cleanse), which healers have a harder time reacting to. Once the burst starts, it's particularly hard to react.

I'll post my own consolidated thoughts/ideas in a seperate reply.

TLDR: BoC/Snipe are more than fine, fix other core issues instead, as mentioned above - like dot dmg, pet dmg, and certain mechanics/debuffs as ill post next.

1) WF/LOTD stuff will not be in this game
2) We KNOW that the Magus/engi need a COMPLETE overhaul. However, as per Aza's suggestions, I have made this thread dealing with only a few abilities at a time. Suggesting 30000 different fixes will not get anywhere, so little steps like buffing the stagger and making BOC/Snipe have a shorter CD are something to help
3) BOC/Snipe have high base damage, but are on incredibly long CDs and don't have anything that really complements their damage, e.g. Dhar Magic of Sorc, VoN from SW, Snipe being physical, e tc. Given their cost, and cast time, they should have a shorter CD. If you're really opposing that then meh, I dunno.
4) Promoting a full DOT and then burst routine would be ideal, but necessitates more fixes in regards to the dots themselves: shorter durations, stronger ticks, anti-cleanse etc I dunno. Hence why I only posted 2 changes in this thread.
5) No, if you're focused on ST then you're focusing on ST - same applies to AOE. You don't see ST Sorcerers shifting between AOE and ST on key targets, so why should Magi/Engis. We have 2 trees dedicated to AOE, so there should be one that is 99% ST. Having said that, I don't mind Firestorm so much: it looks cool, deals decent damage if you have a chosen/20% dmg buff. So I don't mind keeping it.
6) Snipe and BOC should not be reliant on a DOT rotation. If you go havoc/change, you only actively use 2 DoTs when focusing targets - Withered and Baleful (occasionally MBF). You use the 2 dots, get your pet up, use BOC and a SVF as soon as BOC hits. That takes about 6/7 seconds to set-up - similar to a Sorc's rotation, not to mention you need to get debuffs resisted and ensure your pet is up - and so it should do good damage.

tldr - a 5 sec BoC/Snipe CD and 5 sec stagger is not going to harm anyone, and would make most engi/magi happy.

[TenTonHammer]

so todays update put in the suggestions made so far peter, we good or does magus still need more?

either way im firing up my old t1 magus again

[peterthepan3]

The Magus/Engi - in my view - needs a lot done to it, but a few microchanges for now should suffice. Those of us who have played the class since 08 will have developed a high pain threshold, and can surely survive a bit longer while the devs adjudicate what is the best course of action
The suggested changes to BOC/Snipe and Stagger would go a long way, I still believe.

[Renork]

It's definitely nice to see Aza and the team be very active and not ignore classes like magi/eng :^)

[Warpes]

1) WF/LOTD stuff will not be in this game
2) We KNOW that the Magus/engi need a COMPLETE overhaul. However, as per Aza's suggestions, I have made this thread dealing with only a few abilities at a time. Suggesting 30000 different fixes will not get anywhere, so little steps like buffing the stagger and making BOC/Snipe have a shorter CD are something to help
3) BOC/Snipe have high base damage, but are on incredibly long CDs and don't have anything that really complements their damage, e.g. Dhar Magic of Sorc, VoN from SW, Snipe being physical, e tc. Given their cost, and cast time, they should have a shorter CD. If you're really opposing that then meh, I dunno.
4) Promoting a full DOT and then burst routine would be ideal, but necessitates more fixes in regards to the dots themselves: shorter durations, stronger ticks, anti-cleanse etc I dunno. Hence why I only posted 2 changes in this thread.
5) No, if you're focused on ST then you're focusing on ST - same applies to AOE. You don't see ST Sorcerers shifting between AOE and ST on key targets, so why should Magi/Engis. We have 2 trees dedicated to AOE, so there should be one that is 99% ST. Having said that, I don't mind Firestorm so much: it looks cool, deals decent damage if you have a chosen/20% dmg buff. So I don't mind keeping it.
6) Snipe and BOC should not be reliant on a DOT rotation. If you go havoc/change, you only actively use 2 DoTs when focusing targets - Withered and Baleful (occasionally MBF). You use the 2 dots, get your pet up, use BOC and a SVF as soon as BOC hits. That takes about 6/7 seconds to set-up - similar to a Sorc's rotation, not to mention you need to get debuffs resisted and ensure your pet is up - and so it should do good damage.

tldr - a 5 sec BoC/Snipe CD and 5 sec stagger is not going to harm anyone, and would make most engi/magi happy.

1) My point still remains. It was an example to give some numbers for those of you who rely on that sort of thing as being the most important
2) Fair enough that this thread is "just for now stuff". But the point with my post (which I wrote before the patch) was that the steps you originally suggested (before and after edit) would push the class in the entirely wrong direction. And they show a deep fundamental lack of understanding of both the class and how to use it.
3) I'm fine with 5 sec CD buff, and very happy with the stagger buff - it was one of the things we asked for the most on Live after the stagger nerf. But at the same time, thinking that the 5 sec buff, along with everything else you want, as being necessary to fix Magus/Engi, just goes to show why so many people fail at them with Single Target. Lack of rotation and expecting BoC to be a 1 button end all be all NUKE of Magus (or even close to it) is a player issue, not a class issue. And even further from it's actual core issues (which aren't even bad at all, mind you).
4) Promoting a full DoT+DD rotation is indeed ideal, and can also be done now. DoTs could still use the proper buffing/tweaking though, we can agree on that.
5) I'm sorry but absolutely every single one these statements are 100% incorrect and cringe worthy logic... And without trying to sound like a d**k, show that you shouldn't really be dictating what a Magus/Engi needs...
6) Wrong. It actually saddens me to see a rotation and player mechanics like this =/ and proves further the above statements that I've made... This is simply the incorrect way to play. Perhaps that's why you originally asked for the changes that you did...

TLDR; Dot damage, pet scaling in T4, and possibly how cleansable certain Dots are, are the core issues, and the only ones we should really even be concerned with. And those issues are relatively minor.

My concern is only that anything else in the meantime might get in way of properly fixing my favorite two classes. But the changes made so far are fine, particularly the stagger buff.

As a matter of fact, I'm extremely happy balance changes are even being made at all.

[Renork]

1) WF/LOTD stuff will not be in this game
2) We KNOW that the Magus/engi need a COMPLETE overhaul. However, as per Aza's suggestions, I have made this thread dealing with only a few abilities at a time. Suggesting 30000 different fixes will not get anywhere, so little steps like buffing the stagger and making BOC/Snipe have a shorter CD are something to help
3) BOC/Snipe have high base damage, but are on incredibly long CDs and don't have anything that really complements their damage, e.g. Dhar Magic of Sorc, VoN from SW, Snipe being physical, e tc. Given their cost, and cast time, they should have a shorter CD. If you're really opposing that then meh, I dunno.
4) Promoting a full DOT and then burst routine would be ideal, but necessitates more fixes in regards to the dots themselves: shorter durations, stronger ticks, anti-cleanse etc I dunno. Hence why I only posted 2 changes in this thread.
5) No, if you're focused on ST then you're focusing on ST - same applies to AOE. You don't see ST Sorcerers shifting between AOE and ST on key targets, so why should Magi/Engis. We have 2 trees dedicated to AOE, so there should be one that is 99% ST. Having said that, I don't mind Firestorm so much: it looks cool, deals decent damage if you have a chosen/20% dmg buff. So I don't mind keeping it.
6) Snipe and BOC should not be reliant on a DOT rotation. If you go havoc/change, you only actively use 2 DoTs when focusing targets - Withered and Baleful (occasionally MBF). You use the 2 dots, get your pet up, use BOC and a SVF as soon as BOC hits. That takes about 6/7 seconds to set-up - similar to a Sorc's rotation, not to mention you need to get debuffs resisted and ensure your pet is up - and so it should do good damage.

tldr - a 5 sec BoC/Snipe CD and 5 sec stagger is not going to harm anyone, and would make most engi/magi happy.

1) My point still remains. It was an example to give some numbers for those of you who rely on that sort of thing as being the most important
2) Fair enough that this thread is "just for now stuff". But the point with my post (which I wrote before the patch) was that the steps you originally suggested (before and after edit) would push the class in the entirely wrong direction. And they show a deep fundamental lack of understanding of both the class and how to use it.
3) I'm fine with 5 sec CD buff, and very happy with the stagger buff - it was one of the things we asked for the most on Live after the stagger nerf. But at the same time, thinking that the 5 sec buff was necessary to fix Magus/Engi, just goes to show why so many people fail at them with Single Target. Lack of rotation and expecting BoC to be a 1 button end all be all of Magus (or even close to it) is a player issue, not a class issue. And even further from it's actual core issues (which aren't even bad at all, mind you).
4) Promoting a full DoT+DD rotation is indeed ideal, and can also be done now. DoTs could still use the proper buffing/tweaking though, we can agree on that.
5) I'm sorry but absolutely every single one these statements are 100% incorrect and cringe worthy logic... And without trying to sound like a d**k, show that you shouldn't really be dictating what a Magus/Engi needs...
6) Wrong. It actually saddens me to see a rotation and player mechanics like this =/ and proves further the above statements that I've made... This is simply the incorrect way to play. Perhaps that's why you originally asked for the changes that you did...

TLDR; Dot damage, pet scaling in T4, and possibly how cleansable certain Dots are, are the core issues, and the only ones we should really even be concerned with. And those issues are relatively minor.

My concern is only that anything else in the meantime might get in way of properly fixing my favorite two classes. But the changes made so far are fine, particularly the stagger buff.

As a matter of fact, I'm extremely happy balance changes are even being made at all.

Everyone has a different play style, what makes you think you're god's gift to the magus community again? The only person that has *fundamental* knowledge of the class is, in fact, the developer itself. Sorry to break it to you sweetheart, but that's not you, or me, or peterpan. We all want to see the class get the love it deserves, so let's get off cloud 7 and try not to bash OTHER magi players. Feel free to point out idiotic comments such as "no cd on pandemonium", though.

Here's some for you,

Dot damage

This is a tricky subject, dots have always been a universal problem in every game that I have played and usually NEVER get tweaked. If you increased the damage, you may end up making them too powerful. If you decrease the duration, then cleansing becomes less powerful so that *may help*... to an extent.

pet scaling in T4

This I will agree, the pet is garbage in t4.

and possibly how cleansable certain Dots are

All dots should be cleansable.


I liked Bretin's idea of allowing the % damage bonus to persist as long as the pet is within 65ft of the magus.

Edit: Like I said before, many things can be done to tweak the class. It ALL depends on the ROR devs and where they want to head with the class. I liked quite a few of peterpan's ideas, and 5s stagger is a great start. The BoC change won't matter much at our current tier as we rely heavily on crit gear to make it work plus IFoC, 3s SVF, etc..

[Warpes]

Everyone has a different play style, what makes you think you're god's gift to the magus community again? The only person that has *fundamental* knowledge of the class is, in fact, the developer itself. Sorry to break it to you sweetheart, but that's not you, or me, or peterpan. We all want to see the class get the love it deserves, so let's get off cloud 7 and try not to bash OTHER magi players. Feel free to point out idiotic comments such as "no cd on pandemonium", though.

Playstyle is one thing, understanding of the class is another. Everyone has a playstyle, that doesn't mean it's effective or what was intended. And at least most of what I said was already generally accepted by the "magus community", and even players outside of it...

No bashing is going on here either, certainly no more than your own response

Here's some for you,

Dot damage

This is a tricky subject, dots have always been a universal problem in every game that I have played and usually NEVER get tweaked. If you increased the damage, you may end up making them too powerful. If you decrease the duration, then cleansing becomes less powerful so that *may help*... to an extent.

I'm in agreement, it's going to take some fine tuning. But the majority of the playerbase agrees it's worth looking into, even if the end result is one or two changes made in all.

pet scaling in T4

This I will agree, the pet is garbage in t4.

Yep.

and possibly how cleansable certain Dots are

All dots should be cleansable.

I never felt that this was a big one myself, but I can understand how some people hate to reapply certain things.

The big one might be Withered Soul/Signal Flare. Reducing their cooldowns would be a HUGE improvement on it's own which serves multiple purposes, including that of being drastically less of an issue when cleansed.

I liked Bretin's idea of allowing the % damage bonus to persist as long as the pet is within 65ft of the magus.

This is a good one. Or something similar like drastically increasing the duration once at full stacks. Certainly would help a great deal either way.