Why so tediuos?

[Scrilian]

To sum it all up

Spoiler:

[Idrinth]

What is that interesting way to be exact?

Interesting because the fights are not that much dictated by gear? Because you actually need to work for your wins? Interesting, because you don't get stomped without a chance by someone with better gear, that plays worse?

To me it just sounded like the usual casual-catering bs, about making everyone bland copy of each other +/- 5% stats and nullifying commitment to gear yourself.

6% is worthwhile for everyone, even pugs will notice it.
The point is not catering to casuals, the point is keeping content, as in players. WAR tried it's luck with the gear-loving, self-proclaimed hardcore players and lost, since they ended up without any real content(to few players),

A ~year of RR grind for 6% from gear - a noticeable one, really? There is nothing wrong with being powerful.

You would still be powerful, due to RR and gear, just not as insanly powerful as you might be with the gear that was around on live. This will result in challenges still being around even half a year from now and will help keeping content in game.

The problem is, that those casuals, that are the ones who mostly provide the content for everyone, will not have fun being one-shot or 3-shot in a 1vs1 situation due to gear differences. Them quitting reduces the avaible content, making the game less fun - you saw that effect on live as well.

For every 10 casual that leaves 2-3 stay and become hardcore backbone of the game, just so that come and fight that level of power - the actual ones who provide the content by telling what amazing things they've done here and bring their friends here.

I am assuming the best aces for you, so 3/13 stay with the hardcore aproach and 6/13 stay with the less imbalanced one.

let's assume 100 original players.
The first wave will leave 3/13*100=23 or 46 for the second option.
To get the 23 missing players in, the "hardcore" ones now need 23*13/3=99 new players.

Do you really believe that the hardcore audience would be self-stabilizing? Especially when you consider that those also start leaving when the content gets less.

I love getting insanly strong in a game not focussed on PvP - if it's PvP, it's actually reducing the fun if the gap is too big. What would make it interesting is more options depending on gear chosen.

IF its too big but more often then not its not the case. (again, I've never played past 80+)

You didn't even need to go past 80, the T4 was bleeding players before that, a huge amount of fresh 40s when with only RR80 around. RR100 with even better sets just made that even quicker.

Just to throw out some ideas for gear abilites, assume a shared cooldown of 30s, duration of 5 seconds, but no gcd or cost and all of them group-affecting:

Idk about those, WAR was never cooldown-based so to speak aside from morals. Would much prefer just passive bonuses, but that's just me.

CC and extra abilities where always cooldown based, the main point here is, that higher ranks don't directly get more power, just some additional choices. The new Sovereign was build like that for example and worked in interesting enough ways.
I would still like the sets having passive boni, that would be the thing purely getting stronger imo
I also took abilities, since they might work like the runepriest ones, so the coding needed is already there

[Shibirian]

To sum it all up

Spoiler:

Yup, casual vs. hardcore

Or, if you still don't get it, WAR is a mass-combat TEAM-game... Have fun being the hardcore-one. (Or 6man hardcore premade.) If you run into my WB you lose anyway.

[Scrilian]

Interesting because the fights are not that much dictated by gear? Because you actually need to work for your wins? Interesting, because you don't get stomped without a chance by someone with better gear, that plays worse?

How's working for your gear different from working for your wins? If you get stomped by someone with better gear - how about you gear up yourself?

6% is worthwhile for everyone, even pugs will notice it.

On what assumption is that based?
Maybe I'm wrong but remember the article about players not even bothering with the content if the next tier didn't at least reward with 10% stats. I can name a couple of games without tiered gearing and their gear progression in terms of power was close to exponential - and people still play them, mostly close to asia, but still, 6% from 0 to 100 geez

The point is not catering to casuals, the point is keeping content, as in players. WAR tried it's luck with the gear-loving, self-proclaimed hardcore players and lost, since they ended up without any real content(to few players)

Non-sense, after the inital wave of wow-like-casuals left I would guess that the game actually stabilised with a mix of both of casual and hardcore worlds. Its the lack of content past LotD that lost the casuals and ridiculous simplifications of sieges that made hardcore gearing meaningless by staying afk during city sieges.
I wouldn't say that it was all about the true hardcore to begin with, but by todays standarts one could really think so.

You would still be powerful, due to RR and gear, just not as insanly powerful as you might be with the gear that was around on live. This will result in challenges still being around even half a year from now and will help keeping content in game.

On the flip side one can wonder if it will be powerful enough, but we'll see

Do you really believe that the hardcore audience would be self-stabilizing? Especially when you consider that those also start leaving when the content gets less.

It is the only one that is stabilizing to a slow declining degree, the casual part has for the most part no attachments and will leave the game sooner or later.

CC and extra abilities where always cooldown based, the main point here is, that higher ranks don't directly get more power, just some additional choices. The new Sovereign was build like that for example and worked in interesting enough ways.
I would still like the sets having passive boni, that would be the thing purely getting stronger imo
I also took abilities, since they might work like the runepriest ones, so the coding needed is already there

Well good luck with that, the idea is not that bad, but suggesting any bonus abilities to already perceived strong classes will be opposed by the "balance" community greatly.

[Idrinth]

Interesting because the fights are not that much dictated by gear? Because you actually need to work for your wins? Interesting, because you don't get stomped without a chance by someone with better gear, that plays worse?

How's working for your gear different from working for your wins? If you get stomped by someone with better gear - how about you gear up yourself?

The point is the better gear makes sure the one having it needs to work less for a win - making sure you, as someone with less gear, still have a CHANCE at winning.

6% is worthwhile for everyone, even pugs will notice it.

On what assumption is that based?
Maybe I'm wrong but remember the article about players not even bothering with the content if the next tier didn't at least reward with 10% stats. I can name a couple of games without tiered gearing and their gear progression in terms of power was close to exponential - and people still play them, mostly close to asia, but still, 6% from 0 to 100 geez

6% within T4 from RR30 to RR100, please read what I write
It's not an assumption, I know how many players got pets with tiny buffs for real money in the original WAR...

The point is not catering to casuals, the point is keeping content, as in players. WAR tried it's luck with the gear-loving, self-proclaimed hardcore players and lost, since they ended up without any real content(to few players)

Non-sense, after the inital wave of wow-like-casuals left I would guess that the game actually stabilised with a mix of both of casual and hardcore worlds. Its the lack of content past LotD that lost the casuals and ridiculous simplifications of sieges that made hardcore gearing meaningless by staying afk during city sieges.
I wouldn't say that it was all about the true hardcore to begin with, but by todays standarts one could really think so.

As far as I know the game slowly bled out, that has been visible with server merges, online player counts and the amount of people rolling on keep-loot.
The hardcore players followed once they met the same other people only, because the choice of enemies dwindled.
The speed of bleedout increased btw, the further the top-power was ahead of the average and starters.

You would still be powerful, due to RR and gear, just not as insanly powerful as you might be with the gear that was around on live. This will result in challenges still being around even half a year from now and will help keeping content in game.

On the flip side one can wonder if it will be powerful enough, but we'll see

You would have more power than lower ranked players, so yes, powerful enough. Not sure how else you'd define that in a game based on pvp.

Do you really believe that the hardcore audience would be self-stabilizing? Especially when you consider that those also start leaving when the content gets less.

It is the only one that is stabilizing to a slow declining degree, the casual part has for the most part no attachments and will leave the game sooner or later.

The casuals are more likely to switch games, so there's always coming and going, yes. If you don't lose to many players of the newcomers, it stabilizes. casuals and "hardcore" both enjoy good fights - most people who started casual because more invested after experiencing that they had a chance. Those that didn't just left.

CC and extra abilities where always cooldown based, the main point here is, that higher ranks don't directly get more power, just some additional choices. The new Sovereign was build like that for example and worked in interesting enough ways.
I would still like the sets having passive boni, that would be the thing purely getting stronger imo
I also took abilities, since they might work like the runepriest ones, so the coding needed is already there

Well good luck with that, the idea is not that bad, but suggesting any bonus abilities to already perceived strong classes will be opposed by the "balance" community greatly.

luckily I proposed them for whole archetypes, so the inner-archetype balance is not really affected. I tried to keep them similar in power, but obviously that would need to be tested

[RyanMakara]

For every 10 casual that leaves 2-3 stay and become hardcore backbone of the game, just so that come and fight that level of power - the actual ones who provide the content by telling what amazing things they've done here and bring their friends here.

(Dear Devs, we love you, we really do.)

I see truth to his post, no real 'fail' to it. We don't provide ALL the content, we simply offer a testing platform which to build on while the community is expected to give their bug reports/feedback on things so we can tweak them accordingly, to get the best possible result as an overal in-development game.

There'd be no point to rebuilding this game if we didn't have such great people who put their time and effort into playing/reporting bugs/giving constructive feedback. <3

[Genisaurus]

I see truth to his post, no real 'fail' to it. We don't provide ALL the content, we simply offer a testing platform which to build on while the community is expected to give their bug reports/feedback on things so we can tweak them accordingly, to get the best possible result as an overal in-development game.

There'd be no point to rebuilding this game if we didn't have such great people who put their time and effort into playing/reporting bugs/giving constructive feedback. <3

I don't think he was referring to us, it reads like he's saying the hardcore players generate the content by passively acting as the bar new players can measure themselves against and try to climb over.

Which is not to say that I agree or disagree.

[Ninepaces]

Even casual players should have no problem leveling up. Play the game to enjoy it and the exp comes naturally. You cant LOSE exp or RR or medallions if you die so eventually everyone gets where they want to be.

[Dreadspectre]

Even casual players should have no problem leveling up. Play the game to enjoy it and the exp comes naturally. You cant LOSE exp or RR or medallions if you die so eventually everyone gets where they want to be.

*thoughts of a bygone era in EQ and actually LOSING level 40 on his Necromancer 4 times before getting enough exp buffer to keep it*

Games used to be a harsh mistress heh.

Personally, I think Exp rate could be boosted a -smidge- however not the Renown gains, maybe even slow those down in compensation?

Everyone just wants full access to their abilities/mastery points really, I'll keep grinding for renown and gear no problem.

I mean my Zealot is 28 right now and I think 29 says it takes like 290k or something? I currently get, on a good SC win, about 21-24k. That's for a GOOD win, average win is probably closer to 18k. If I lose and or get hosed yeah...more like 1-7k.

And it's only going to go up from there but my exp gain from SC's is going to remain the same.

[magicthighs]

I see truth to his post, no real 'fail' to it. We don't provide ALL the content, we simply offer a testing platform which to build on while the community is expected to give their bug reports/feedback on things so we can tweak them accordingly, to get the best possible result as an overal in-development game.

There'd be no point to rebuilding this game if we didn't have such great people who put their time and effort into playing/reporting bugs/giving constructive feedback. <3

I don't think he was referring to us, it reads like he's saying the hardcore players generate the content by passively acting as the bar new players can measure themselves against and try to climb over.

That's how I read it too, and I agree that it's nonsense.

The only thing this game really *needs* is casual players, the pugs, the zergs. Without them there is no action in orvr, much slower scenario pops, and nobody for the hardcore players to feel superior to.
If all the so-called harcore people left today. everything would keep running along the way it does now. If the casual players all left there would hardly be anything to do outside scenarios.