Gerv wrote:An interesting approach. Removing the AoE snare would make fights again more chaotic. Would you remove the AoE snares completely or just tone them down to 50% up-time?
If complete removal, why do you think so?
Of course auras are trivial, the whole mechanic is trivial as Dabbart has pointed out and for what is commonly known. If you don't edit the super punt to give it too another class how do you propose to displace the knight as the only class to temporarily remove guard or would you tone that down as well?
The issue I see with toning down is that you would need to push extreme damage even more to be able to push through guard with moral drop. Do you think there are other options to kill through guard? **I will edit this once I think more about it tomorrow as I am about to sleep.
SM damage will go down because the resit values will increase and the resist debuff from the SM is essentially at its highest due to mastery tree scaling. Which will be a more excessive reduction the Bo or SM, hard to say, depends which, of resists or armor increases at a greater rate with later gear sets.
Removing them completely, I am all for it. It would make good tanks who can cycle single target snare through multiple enemies shine more. It would also increase their decision making skills : do i snare the tank, the dps, the off-tank, etc. But that's personal. I think most would be agasint it as latency and server minor instabilities makes snare necessary for reliable melee damage. So imo, 50% uptime with a CD makes for more decision based skill play, for example, it could give great opportunity for shaman/AM to time their respective AoE snare with eir tanks for max effect and outplay a group that doesn't.
About the super punt, I don't know. I feel like Ib punt is okay. A minor buff would be nice. But it's not a huge issue for me. About guard, I am a firm believer in punting the target and disabling both tanks (Root, KD), as destro tank are generally a pain to punt because of high avoidance. IB punt is great for that as it is a fast punt, so your team can start to M bomb litteraly 0,5s after it. If a knight punts, you have to wait 3s for the target to land. Different playstyle.
ABOUT DAMAGE
Well, I don't believe the difference between SM and IB is that great, I'Ve said it quite often so far xD. Personally, something like 10-20% max (and I believe lots of SM slot GWM, that 10% xtra damage, most IB don't). There are only a handful of SM I see that do more damage than me. And they all are better players than i am, so they could probably do more as IB also. Sure Ether-dance hits hard. So does BG, HB, PB, AA and Earthshatter/Grudge-born Fury all hitting at once. We are both talking reliable 3-5k rotation. But eh, everyone disagree with me, so I must be dumb or something. The biggest difference is probably caused by Blurring Shock/Skull thumper for xtra burst damage during FF.
Farfadet, RR72 shaman Volgograd, RR80 IB
Video thread here.
Natherul wrote:Chosen and knights are going to have some work done on them soon anyway mate. They need a hit with the nerfhammer
Will the tanks all be adjusted in tandem or will Chosen and Knight be adjusted in isolation?
** Do players think these changes discussed are moving the tanks in the right direction?
At the same time I imagine as we've done with the wo/dok and am/sha changes. Keep in mind that wp/dok still needs to be finished (which we need client control for) before we will address the chosen knights issue.
But yes they will be addressed because the auras are way too strong for no risk or skill involved, and couple that with the survivability the career has and you can see where the issue is
chosen is prety good and easy tank, atleast easer than bg and black orc. u can keep up 60%parry. u have 200morale when u block. i reached 3d and 4th morale even cooldawn is not finished yet (after using 4th morale) if 4th morale will be 30sec i can spam it much more. u have incredible ap boost from first morale from 2 tactics.
i seen only kobs nerfed tactics that 2 who give +20% crit and anti shaman.
P.s thx for moving down bg parry tactic to 7points i enjoy it .
"give wh and witch propper aoe like evrywone has it!"
Dabbart wrote:I was actually speaking more in terms of Kiting, while being CCd out of combat, swaping guard, etc. I don't have any real experience with SM, so I wont argue for a buff or debuff towards them at all. I wouldn't suggest tweaking other classes to better be balanced towards an imbalanced class ability. I like to look at other class mechanics, and draw inspiration from that. The Aura's need either; A direct Counter, or a need to expend GcDs in melee to empower them.
none of this ultimately has anything to do with how Aura's make so many class buffs and potions irrelevant.
You are right, but just tweaking the aura alone is not going to solve aura issue. What kind of direct counter could you think that would not be to complicated?
Even if you have to expend GCDs to empower them, the values have to change, otherwise, a knight will still be picked for the buffs and super punt. There needs to be an alternative that can provide such buffs and debuffs on a similar scale. This is where I believe the ability to stat steal and buff/de-buff on the SM from the 1.4.9 patch notes being a possible solution to the insane group buffs/de-buffs from a Knight that so easily put many other class abilities out of action. I think the SM buff would not just replace the issue because, as you said, there are ways to counter a SM as you noted. The toning down of the resist aura value was to bring up the usefulness other healer resist boons was part of the hoped revival of other abilities too.
Spoiler:
Dabbart wrote:That could work. Balancing each Aura to an ability would be maddening however. In my mind, if you wanted to accomplish your goal, I would think about how the knights/Chosen balance against the Other tanks w/o ANY aura's. Maybe the "fix" is to break Aura's as they stand, and replace them with Auras that Proc on attack, reduce the buff/debuff strength drastically, and allow them to stack with other non-knight/chosen Auras(Or not, I have no idea what the thoughts are on fixing the redundancy of so many buff/debuff abilities).
But imo, if you broke all ability score Aura's today, people would still want knights/chosen in groups over most other tanks. I could be wrong.
Edit: I hate Punts in all forms. I would replace all Super Punts with a Short ranged punt that applied an unbreakable stagger in duration different per tank. I just dislike the mechanic that allows so much inherent Griefing that is almost entirely latency based at times.
in terms of Knight/Chosen on Super punt, it costs a Tactic, the issue is that the CD needs stay at 20s.
The Guard issue is entirely seperate imo.
Exactly, that is why you have to move the group utility so desired from a Knight. 1) the Super Punt 2) AoE snare 3) 15% heal (minor imho). I would look to attach the auras to the core tree abilities. For example, Press the Attack could apply to Precision Strike and Crippling Blow while AoA applies to Arc Swing and Shining Blade with a 5 sec duration so as not to enable an overloading of Auras at the same time. But this, as you stated, brings added complications as designating which auras apply to which abilities. I would have thought that moving punt distances around on classes would be easier than coming up with a agreed upon solution to the guard ability.
Spoiler:
Eathisword wrote:Removing them completely, I am all for it. It would make good tanks who can cycle single target snare through multiple enemies shine more. It would also increase their decision making skills : do i snare the tank, the dps, the off-tank, etc. But that's personal. I think most would be agasint it as latency and server minor instabilities makes snare necessary for reliable melee damage. So imo, 50% uptime with a CD makes for more decision based skill play, for example, it could give great opportunity for shaman/AM to time their respective AoE snare with eir tanks for max effect and outplay a group that doesn't.
About the super punt, I don't know. I feel like Ib punt is okay. A minor buff would be nice. But it's not a huge issue for me. About guard, I am a firm believer in punting the target and disabling both tanks (Root, KD), as destro tank are generally a pain to punt because of high avoidance. IB punt is great for that as it is a fast punt, so your team can start to M bomb litteraly 0,5s after it. If a knight punts, you have to wait 3s for the target to land. Different playstyle.
If we go along the lines of removing the AoE snare abilities or pushing them to only having 50% up-time as suggested by Volo, this has the added benefit of removing balance issues of moving AoE snares between classes. It would also buff the IB and AM who are the few classes with abilities to snare multiple enemies. In addition too increasing the usefulness of classes who can Stagger for long periods to prevent kiting. I never considered just removing it. I wonder what others think to this idea, is perma AoE snaring required or is it just a QoL improvement we have come to rely on?
Do you think Volo, that the IB punt removes the target far enough out of guard range to even have a large enough window to kill the target?
Is this where you see the point of a root, I can't see it being enough and just granting 2 types of immunity.
Gerv wrote:
You are right, but just tweaking the aura alone is not going to solve aura issue. What kind of direct counter could you think that would not be to complicated?
A way of countering auras would be to make them enchantments or blessings. In addition you could put on a CD when they get shattered so you can't reactivate immediately. This would also help with the redundancy issue. If you can shut town the auras for a certain amount of time then a less potent ability is still desirable to bridge the gap.
Gerv wrote:Even if you have to expend GCDs to empower them, the values have to change, otherwise, a knight will still be picked for the buffs and super punt. There needs to be an alternative that can provide such buffs and debuffs on a similar scale. This is where I believe the ability to stat steal and buff/de-buff on the SM from the 1.4.9 patch notes being a possible solution to the insane group buffs/de-buffs from a Knight that so easily put many other class abilities out of action. I think the SM buff would not just replace the issue because, as you said, there are ways to counter a SM as you noted. The toning down of the resist aura value was to bring up the usefulness other healer resist boons was part of the hoped revival of other abilities too.
I can only speak for my group but the stat buffs of the kotbs are not the reason we pick him. Stat buffs/debuffs can covererd by other classes or pots. Therefore I don't believe a change to the values will do anything to his viability or his ranking among the tanks.
An increase of SM stat steal would just lead to slight power creep imo. The stat steal in it's current form is already very powerful on offensive SMs.
Gerv wrote:
Spoiler:
Dabbart wrote:That could work. Balancing each Aura to an ability would be maddening however. In my mind, if you wanted to accomplish your goal, I would think about how the knights/Chosen balance against the Other tanks w/o ANY aura's. Maybe the "fix" is to break Aura's as they stand, and replace them with Auras that Proc on attack, reduce the buff/debuff strength drastically, and allow them to stack with other non-knight/chosen Auras(Or not, I have no idea what the thoughts are on fixing the redundancy of so many buff/debuff abilities).
But imo, if you broke all ability score Aura's today, people would still want knights/chosen in groups over most other tanks. I could be wrong.
Edit: I hate Punts in all forms. I would replace all Super Punts with a Short ranged punt that applied an unbreakable stagger in duration different per tank. I just dislike the mechanic that allows so much inherent Griefing that is almost entirely latency based at times.
in terms of Knight/Chosen on Super punt, it costs a Tactic, the issue is that the CD needs stay at 20s.
The Guard issue is entirely seperate imo.
Exactly, that is why you have to move the group utility so desired from a Knight. 1) the Super Punt 2) AoE snare 3) 15% heal (minor imho). I would look to attach the auras to the core tree abilities. For example, Press the Attack could apply to Precision Strike and Crippling Blow while AoA applies to Arc Swing and Shining Blade with a 5 sec duration so as not to enable an overloading of Auras at the same time. But this, as you stated, brings added complications as designating which auras apply to which abilities. I would have thought that moving punt distances around on classes would be easier than coming up with a agreed upon solution to the guard ability.
I like the concept of attaching auras to skills. You could play around with the aura duration so that it's generally shorter than the ability CD. Essentially moving the majority of the auras from 'always on' to 'situational'. This would at least raise the minimum skill level of the kotbs/chosen which was afaik one of the goals of the devs.
Gerv wrote:
Spoiler:
Eathisword wrote:Removing them completely, I am all for it. It would make good tanks who can cycle single target snare through multiple enemies shine more. It would also increase their decision making skills : do i snare the tank, the dps, the off-tank, etc. But that's personal. I think most would be agasint it as latency and server minor instabilities makes snare necessary for reliable melee damage. So imo, 50% uptime with a CD makes for more decision based skill play, for example, it could give great opportunity for shaman/AM to time their respective AoE snare with eir tanks for max effect and outplay a group that doesn't.
About the super punt, I don't know. I feel like Ib punt is okay. A minor buff would be nice. But it's not a huge issue for me. About guard, I am a firm believer in punting the target and disabling both tanks (Root, KD), as destro tank are generally a pain to punt because of high avoidance. IB punt is great for that as it is a fast punt, so your team can start to M bomb litteraly 0,5s after it. If a knight punts, you have to wait 3s for the target to land. Different playstyle.
If we go along the lines of removing the AoE snare abilities or pushing them to only having 50% up-time as suggested by Volo, this has the added benefit of removing balance issues of moving AoE snares between classes. It would also buff the IB and AM who are the few classes with abilities to snare multiple enemies. In addition too increasing the usefulness of classes who can Stagger for long periods to prevent kiting. I never considered just removing it. I wonder what others think to this idea, is perma AoE snaring required or is it just a QoL improvement we have come to rely on?
Well moving aoe snares to 50% up time on one class would make the aoe snares complement each others instead of being redundant. In case they are required for some reason. I personally feel that perma aoe snares are more of a QoL change. They might be more important for melee grp, but I'm not expert on that.
Somewhere I read that IB was considered a well rounded and balanced char. However when I look at the IB what I see is a lack of class defining abilities. Something that I can't get from any other chararcters. Oathbound comes close to this but 25% parry and some initiative only helps me against melee attacks. The 10% crit are certainly nice but than I would rather take an Initiative debuff (e.g. SM with Nature's Blade), this also gives me 10%+ more crit but for everyone who hits the target.
So what excatly do I need/want an IB for?
You should edit the text of the skills that have been changed, because now it is a terrible mess.
And almost all classes have incorrect information about their skills.
Last edited by Kali14 on Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cimba wrote:So what excatly do I need/want an IB for?
The only tank on order with armor debuff, ap for the whole group on crits tactic, ap for his oathfriend with watch and learn, +25% parry for his oathfriend, aoe snare, decent punt, can run 2h with an on demand kd that does good damage and still has good guard damage mitigation thanks to oathfriend.
Also keep in mind the "meta" on live for a long time was double slayer so IB was the only thing that could provide an armor debuff for their target.
The only thing that puts the IB behind is how clunky his buff system is, if there lasted a bit longer or simply were out of the gcd, he would be as good as kobts with all the tools he brings.
Gerv wrote:
Do you think Volo, that the IB punt removes the target far enough out of guard range to even have a large enough window to kill the target?
Is this where you see the point of a root, I can't see it being enough and just granting 2 types of immunity.
Yes and no. It does sometimes and it doesn't other times. I'm not saying its ideal, but it's what seem to works best with IB punt. The root part is to give you an xtra 1-2s, for the tank to use juggernaut. If you can time it when juggernaut is on CD, then it's even more worth the root. Obviously if you run knight/IB, the knight can punt the tank in the opposite direction the IB punted the target, which would give you a pretty big window.
Bad example that somehow worked : https://youtu.be/GUpZYgjhklI?t=79
I punt the zealot out of M4/guard range. Root the 3 tanks and by the time they get there its too late. Not ideal. But it can work.
TL/DR : Would I like a bigger punt ? yes. Do I think its necessary ? No.
@Bloodi
I agree with what you say 100%. If the 3 grudge consuming buff (crit, parry, WS) had 20s duration like the other ones, IB would be very very strong imo. A very strong possible buff, would be to make Watch n Learn give WS to oathfriend also. This way IB would bring 3 very great buffs, that he can maintain with very good uptime.
Farfadet, RR72 shaman Volgograd, RR80 IB
Video thread here.
