Coryphaus wrote:Ok first off just b/c you taunt a target dosnt mean you debuff the enemys dmg vs allies only challenge does that furthermore an upwards 20% dmg boost sound freakin ridiculous and over the top
I never said it will debuff their damage, or act as Challenge. What it will do is force them to attack YOU instead of whatever they were attacking, or they will eat a bunch of damage.
The 20% dmg bonus will only be in effect if the 2H tank has guarded an ally who has taken damage. This means the tank will have taken damage as well. Also, it's only on Taunt's multiplier. Taunt is easily and quickly removed by hitting the tank.
skutrug wrote:I don't think the point of the discussion was to increase the defensive abilities of 2-H tanks - we all understand that WAR is build on the concept of trade-off: You want to do damages, you must be willing to take the punishement as well. Unfortunately, as Azarael pointed out, 2-H tanks lose the defenses without gaining significant offensive capabilities. The idea was to try increasing the offense in some way. Guard removal amount to a 50% increase in damages for a number of seconds, a very serious threat coming from a 2-H tank (although I doubt it will make a group of choppas run back as someone suggested above )
Let's face it: 2 classes of tanks already have guard removal - It's called "punt the tank more than 30' from his guardee. SM/BO don't have that. I support the idea of altering one of their abilities to remove guard on a target and give a limited debuff preventing the immediat reapplication of the guard. I prefer that to putting a CD on guard because it appears unnecessary to limit the ability of every other tank to float guard. I am against putting it on 2-H weapons since the idea was to improve the role of BO and SM, not buff 2-H choppas and slayers. Chosen/Knights and BG/IB can punt if they want to remove guard. Altering one ability of BO and SM is unlikely to have widespread unintended consequences.
We can always buff other tanks or mdps if suddenly we start seeing scenarios with only BO and shammies ... although it sure would be funny
The lack of a good ST punt for BOs/SMs is already being discussed in a different thread. Mythic's proposed solution was 1.4.9 and the defensive pounce (something i completely agree with), which Aza has said he might look into it eventually.
This thread is mostly to talk about the utility of 2H tanks (all of them) compared to SnB.
Having said that, let's use a little logic to try and find some balance:
- BOs and SMs get superpunted, but they can't superpunt anyone. Solution: Make them able to pounce back to their guarded targets, while the other tanks can't. Sounds balanced, and makes all tanks unique and different.
- SnB tanks mitigate way more guard damage than 2H tanks. Solution: Give 2H tanks a way to temporarily (5 secs) remove guard from an enemy, directly countering SnB tanks. Sounds balanced to me, and makes SnB and 2H tanks unique and different.
See where i'm going with this? The solution has to be related to the problem; otherwise, you just create more imbalance. For example, trying to fix BOs and make them more desirable by buffing their already good DPS won't change anything since the other tanks will still have more utility and CC.
Last edited by Penril on Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Penril wrote:See where i'm going with this? The solution has to be related to the problem; otherwise, you just create more imbalance. For example, trying to fix BOs and make them more desirable by buffing their already good DPS won't change anything since the other tanks will still have more utility and CC.
Exactly right. This should be the guiding principle of any changes. The only case where this does not apply is when it comes to fixing skills which are underpowered per se.
I like the idea of a debuff on the guardee.
It allows the 2h wielder to participate in the assit on the target rather than removing the guard on the guardian and running back to the assit target.
Yes, @Penril has it nailed. A tank's big job is to guard. You might include a 2H tank like KBS/Chosen to act as a stagger-bot or whatever other other special ability you are interested in for your strategy (and do some dps as filler), but going 2H and being a bodyguard is nuts.
Remove guard it's bad idea, it dosen't matter from which side you look at it... A ST focus from 3-4 player it's so much that remove guard + heal debuff make target dead, that's not the way to make something better it's the way to make a meccanic (guard in this case ) useless.
I truly dont see how put something in game that completly remove what it makes war a rvr game could make the game better . We alredy have inase way to make burst and the new addition to make EVEN more (!!) burst inside a game where it should indeed being add a more strategic component it's horrible.
To re-take penrli talk: IF tank guard better that does not mean the guarded take less damage, it get always removed teh 50%. So removing a guard and let guarded take more damage make no sense cos it's the tank that benefith from the shield and not viceversa........
If damages would be less and when i mean less i point the finger to those "procs" that all roll stomp premade use aka
Sorc/bw dok/wp and also only on order "on your guards".
If those were nerf to the ground there would be more space for more dps build oriented ( Those are not fair abilites, they are totaly the less skilles things in game), tanks could for sure spec less def and still do fine.
Also a tank that run 2h still need to have the chance to survine in the aoe and in every situation where like 48+ ppl are fighting; It's not just good give tanks an op skill but not let em being normaly what they are suppose to be ---> tank
What will be the results, think about it...... !? defensive 2h tank that use 2h just to remove guard........
SM and BG by their own can be outstanding 2h tanks due to their durability: SM due to mutiple high defense and BG due to insane ammount of toughness. Which is why destru dps cannot ingore defense as slayer does and order dps cannot so counter well bg tough buff
A-If you think that tanks do too few damage ....that's why they were nerf in the first place.... most of em done too much damage for being tank!!
B-If your problem it's survability x damage; increase and decrease those on those specific damage /defense skills on specific classes.
Arch-type speaking if you think about what role a tank have:
DEFENSE:
damage soak
Guard
OFFENSE:
do damage
SUPPORT:
cc
BUFF/debuff
there are 2 ways how a 2h tank should ideally work
1-to make it behaviour exatly as a def tank ( take as exemple the sm 2h channeling) but to do more damage for reciving more damage, this mean he should have a way to defend from attacks with the same ratio as a shielded tank but he should take those + damage that he does with 2h as a surpluss damage due to have not a shield but only by his char damage and not from his guard damage
.
-->2h do more damage than 1h, you then take more damage but defense on guard work still fine.
2- make it more suited for offense + defense but with very very few support.
Def tank have great survability and support, that mean 2/3 things a tank can do, so that's mean a 2h tank must be set up to do damage and then choose defense or support. or a mix of those 2
N.B. nerf those def tank that do too much support as it's safe play a def support than a offensive one, so risk x reward says that the more the tank it's offensive the more it should support well the group. (Same basic for passive skill vs active skill). For exemple those kobs tactic in some way are unjustified. While for exemple resistence auras is needed as counter to bw/sorc damage; those slotted tactic are there to coutner not really something.
So for those who have red this text wall i wanna put a question.
Exept the fact about guard remove skill being good or bad... would you feeling well to give all 2h tank the same instrument?
Would not be better give every 2h tank something based on what i wrote above ( offense/defense /support) specifically by it's gameplay instead to give everyone the same addition? Would not be more cooler have 2h tank each gain 1 buff when use 2h specifically by pairing so that better support tank like chosen/kobs had less strong 2h buff while other get the better one?
Few random exemple good or bad:
1- reduce melee attack speed in 30 feet and enemy aoe range (proportional between the"damage done and the pure damge show in skills tooltips") in 10 seconds with a reset time after 5 seconds (a total of 10 sec to build the effect and 5 sec to use it at the max you had build it) .-->chosen/kobs
2-Reduces ap/rec regen based by x % and at max remove ap/rec proportional by damage done( as above) done in 10 sec reset after 5 sec (total as above).----->BO/IB
3-etc --->BG/SM
Last edited by Tesq on Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
Penril wrote:
- BOs and SMs get superpunted, but they can't superpunt anyone. Solution: Make them able to pounce back to their guarded targets, while the other tanks can't. Sounds balanced, and makes all tanks unique and different.
There are much better ways to make BO/SM more attractive then making them ranged assist classes. Well that and immune to punt ofc. Why?
Tanks being punted of a bridge/cliff/lava will fly back up
Makes Fetch and TE meaningless abilities
Pounce is made stronger as the risk is gone
Outnumbered defenders funnelling will more easily be overrun by the zerg as snare and CD are weakened
The zerg will catch the kiters more easily as tanks will fly in on charging/pouncing mdps and drop AOE snare
Kiting classes lose out when the tank assist fly in and champ challenge
I suspect 1.4.9 defensive jump never would have made it to live after a bit of testing
Penril wrote:
- SnB tanks mitigate way more guard damage than 2H tanks. Solution: Give 2H tanks a way to temporarily (5 secs) remove guard from an enemy, directly countering SnB tanks. Sounds balanced to me, and makes SnB and 2H tanks unique and different.
Such a change would kill small scale vs large scale RvR. Being outnumbered only works if incoming damage can be reliably migrated by guard
Penril wrote:
See where i'm going with this? The solution has to be related to the problem; otherwise, you just create more imbalance. For example, trying to fix BOs and make them more desirable by buffing their already good DPS won't change anything since the other tanks will still have more utility and CC.
2h is inferior to DW and SnB. It is an imbalance in the weapons core mechanic/design
All MDPS classes that can DW over 2h
Good tanks even DPS tanks use SnB over 2h
Dps WPs are weaker then dps Doks partially due to 2h being a stinker
I suggest we look at 2h:ers instead of the tank classes that happen to suffer from the same shortcoming as everyone else
Bozzax wrote:
There are much better ways to make BO/SM more attractive then making them ranged assist classes. Well that and immune to punt ofc. Why?
Tanks being punted of a bridge/cliff/lava will fly back up Wrong. Defensive Pounce would obviously not be usable while in mid-air. RoR devs have already said that even WL's pounce shouldn't be usable mid-air, so don't be surprised if it actually gets fixed that way.
Makes Fetch and TE meaningless abilities Wrong again. Let's say i am playing a Chosen. A Mara from my group pulls an AM, but his SM buddy pounces right next to him. I just superpunt the SM and since his pounce will be on a 30 sec CD there will be nothing he can do to save the AM.
Pounce is made stronger as the risk is gone Once again wrong. WL's pounce has no CD, while SM's has a 30 sec CD. That means he can effectively pounce ONCE with a SM next to him; after that, the SM won't be able to pounce again for 30 secs. And if i were the Chosen from the previous example, i would just superpunt the SM away.
Outnumbered defenders funnelling will more easily be overrun by the zerg as snare and CD are weakened Snare and CD are weakened? This doesn't make any sense.
The zerg will catch the kiters more easily as tanks will fly in on charging/pouncing mdps and drop AOE snare I already gave an extensive example about how this would actually benefit the underdog. So i'll make it short here: Tank stays behind and applies roots/AoE snares on the zerg, then pounces to his kiting friend. Kite for 30 secs and repeat.
Kiting classes lose out when the tank assist fly in and champ challenge Champ Challenge requires a Morale 1. In the time it takes to build M1 any decent tank will already be within Champ's Challenge range of the assisted target. No need to use defensive pounce.
I suspect 1.4.9 defensive jump never would have made it to live after a bit of testing You are very good at being wrong. 1.4.9 made it to the PTS and Keaven Freeman tweaked it a lot there. It was definitely gonna make it to live since it was received overwhelmingly positively by the community. If it didn't make it, it was because the game shut down.
Bozzax wrote:
Penril wrote:
- SnB tanks mitigate way more guard damage than 2H tanks. Solution: Give 2H tanks a way to temporarily (5 secs) remove guard from an enemy, directly countering SnB tanks. Sounds balanced to me, and makes SnB and 2H tanks unique and different.
Such a change would kill small scale vs large scale RvR. Being outnumbered only works if incoming damage can be reliably migrated by guard Being outnumbered works if you play in a coordinated way, asssist each other and know how to kite. You know what happens if guard is removed from you for 5 seconds? You USE YOUR DETAUNT, which lasts 5 (or more) secs and doesn't stack with guard anyway.
Bozzax wrote:
Penril wrote:
See where i'm going with this? The solution has to be related to the problem; otherwise, you just create more imbalance. For example, trying to fix BOs and make them more desirable by buffing their already good DPS won't change anything since the other tanks will still have more utility and CC.
2h is inferior to DW and SnB. It is an imbalance in the weapons core mechanic/design
All MDPS classes that can DW over 2h Not true. Many Choppas go 2H if in a premade. The reason you see so many dual wielding is because of the +10% parry. Slayers go DW because Inevitable Doom (one of their best skills) REQUIRES dual wielding.
Good tanks even DPS tanks use SnB over 2h Yes. Which is why 2H tanks should be looked into (what we have all been saying in this thread). What's your point?
Dps WPs are weaker then dps Doks partially due to 2h being a stinker DPS WPs are weaker than DoKs mostly due to the lack of a 50% inc heal debuff
I suggest we look at 2h:ers instead of the tank classes that happen to suffer from the same shortcoming as everyone else mDPS classes don't lose as much as tanks when going 2H. Not even close. But by now we all know you love to be wrong
Last edited by Penril on Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
thats b/c mdps have actual GOOD abilites that beneifit for going 2h like choppas tired already and furthermore have tactics that ensure going 2h is not a downside
furthermore mdps detaunt like choppas is a **** joke and only lasts 5s not 10
furthermore a sm who pounce can anticipate and counter punt with resolute defense
)
