Nerf WH/WE into the ground

[eigner93]

What do you expect? The way you play, I'm not surprised you die a lot. You go really deep with your RP and just hope to survive?
I've seen you plenty of times standing way too deep, basically asking to be focused.
I'm happy to apply KOD + BLB on you, you won't be healing much after that.

Im sorry krima, you have been defending WEs tooth to nail in every post i have seen and most of the time def wes like yourself, encouraging everyone to play def spec on every class if they run solo or just highlighting the class that just runs over WE to divert attention. I run all kinds of builds including def on my characters. Any chance i ever had to kill a def we who is not half braindead just staggers me and goes in stealth and there is literally nothing me or anyone else can do about it. The other thing that def we is basically a dps tank with stealth and 2 pounce. Tanks are kiteable, that is their weakness. Now imagine a dps Chosen with stealth and 2 pounces. People would lose their minds and every 2nd post would be about nerf chosens. You got to look at things objectively.
I am not saying we should be nerfed to the ground. I think we is fine just needs a few tiny nerfs and tweaks. But the numbers and players are not lying.

So what your saying is regen or defensive build is cool for other classes but the WE. sounds fair.

WE had pounce before but now have to spec another ability to use it.

Plenty of other classes have more than enough CC to either kill or run away. I dont need to name the classes because we already know. Not to mention order has destro PQs to run into and extra war camps tied to pop.

Pounce, which we already had, didn't make us OP. The mdps patch was actually a nerf to WEs. Bladespin is mediocre. Slice is a noodle, ruthless assault is not great, and Sac Stab doesn't hit like Burn away lies. Nerfed. As far as our jump away stagger goes it doesn't work well unless fighting another solo player and we know even solo players lurk near warbands.

Not sure what you talk about, noone said that. But while we can slot toughness and armor talis or renown points other physical dps classes have to slot ws or str to still deal some damage which is still less than we produces through corp dots and witchbrew and agonizing which completely ignores armor.

Lets not kid with ourselves other classes dont have the escape capabilities of we especially when you encounter a group by accident. Even in a 1v1 situation we can still catch you if you kd him and run away. I dont think running into warcamp or mobs is relevant here.

I dont think i have seen a we who doesnt spec it. And you meant to use it again.

If we got a nerf in the melee dps patch then the other classes were nerfed to oblivion. Maybe i was wrong all along. Maybe everything else just got way more nerfed than we/wh.

[Shogun4138]

Im sorry krima, you have been defending WEs tooth to nail in every post i have seen and most of the time def wes like yourself, encouraging everyone to play def spec on every class if they run solo or just highlighting the class that just runs over WE to divert attention. I run all kinds of builds including def on my characters. Any chance i ever had to kill a def we who is not half braindead just staggers me and goes in stealth and there is literally nothing me or anyone else can do about it. The other thing that def we is basically a dps tank with stealth and 2 pounce. Tanks are kiteable, that is their weakness. Now imagine a dps Chosen with stealth and 2 pounces. People would lose their minds and every 2nd post would be about nerf chosens. You got to look at things objectively.
I am not saying we should be nerfed to the ground. I think we is fine just needs a few tiny nerfs and tweaks. But the numbers and players are not lying.

So what your saying is regen or defensive build is cool for other classes but the WE. sounds fair.

WE had pounce before but now have to spec another ability to use it.

Plenty of other classes have more than enough CC to either kill or run away. I dont need to name the classes because we already know. Not to mention order has destro PQs to run into and extra war camps tied to pop.

Pounce, which we already had, didn't make us OP. The mdps patch was actually a nerf to WEs. Bladespin is mediocre. Slice is a noodle, ruthless assault is not great, and Sac Stab doesn't hit like Burn away lies. Nerfed. As far as our jump away stagger goes it doesn't work well unless fighting another solo player and we know even solo players lurk near warbands.

Not sure what you talk about, noone said that. But while we can slot toughness and armor talis or renown points other physical dps classes have to slot ws or str to still deal some damage which is still less than we produces through corp dots and witchbrew and agonizing which completely ignores armor.

Lets not kid with ourselves other classes dont have the escape capabilities of we especially when you encounter a group by accident. Even in a 1v1 situation we can still catch you if you kd him and run away. I dont think running into warcamp or mobs is relevant here.

I dont think i have seen a we who doesnt spec it. And you meant to use it again.

If we got a nerf in the melee dps patch then the other classes were nerfed to oblivion. Maybe i was wrong all along. Maybe everything else just got way more nerfed than we/wh.

Too many people think they have to go all in, one direction or the other. Its called balancing your spec.

All characters have dots, learn to apply them. That's honestly how you kill regen or defensive targets. Sad I had to tell you that. Witch brew does not hit hard and does not crit. It seems bad with all the dots applied. As far as agonizing wounds, armor debuff the WE and they are pretty much naked.

All classes have cc. Because they only use it to kill is not the WEs fault. It is possible to use cc to reset your own advantage, though most dont get that. Does a WE have escape abilities, yes. They can all be countered. Good players know this.

As far as nerfing, I pointed out the abilities that suffered a nerf. I won't re-hash that.

[Narfii]

Let's homogenize all the classes so they all do the same thing!

Class variation is a good thing. All the classes can do things other classes can't and that doesn't mean there isn't balance. This is a bad argument for changes.

Welf is fine. If you play the class and actually build for solo/small scale, you'll see the weaknesses. Most of these posts I see boil down to skill and they all seem conflate every tool into one spec. Witchbrew is a niche spec. I would trade the leap for a sap any day. The class doesn't even get an interrupt lol

The failure of the mdps patch was the AoE rework for the welf. The damage is okay, but it's literally just damage. Little cc, very few debuffs, etc. Stealth classes are control classes and this should've been reflected in the patch.

[DiMakss]

WH\WE contribution to the game (how usefull they are to other players, teams, groups, etc) - 2%
WH\WE contrubution into pushing lowbies out of the game - 98%

I love this, I hate new ppl comming to my game

[lumpi33]

Guys, it's only the WE players themselves defending the class here in the forum.

Outside of this forum they speak more open about how op the WE is. Like ingame or here in the comments of this youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B2yn16hFR4

Look in video at timestamp 20:50 onwards and you gonna see how easy it is for WEs to get kills - and that WE is a returning player. He doesn't even know all the secrets.

Someone in the comments below tells him: "I run Sac Stab + Witchbrew since Treachery Assault can build up 2 stacks frenzy (4 if you proc Elixir of Shadow) you can hit up to 8-10k opening out of stealth if you do it right."

So, that guy doesn't even know what he is doing and is still face rolling most of his targets.

If you think that 8-10k in a few seconds and killing before the targets gets up from 3s kd or shortly after is fine then I don't know what you are smoking... the damage is way above every other class. Just a comparison: in the time the WE is able to burn through a full health bar is barely enough to get a 3s cast with set backs off as BW. ONE cast that takes 3s and does 1500ish damage IF it doesn't get disrupted vs 8-10k drops from WE in a few seconds. Not gonna say that it would make sense to start a 3s cast when getting jumped but just to put the power of WEs in relation to BW and what other class can or better say can NOT do.

If a BW were on WE level he would immediately teleport away then nuke the WE with 3000ish hits every 2 seconds. That would make the both equal. Of course it is not the case. The reality is that he doesn't have teleport nor big damage, the WE kills him in a few seconds then leaves the fight with at least 90% health left. That's not a fight, that's a slaughter.

[Narfii]

Guys, it's only the WE players themselves defending the class here in the forum.

Outside of this forum they speak more open about how op the WE is. Like ingame or here in the comments of this youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B2yn16hFR4

Look in video at timestamp 20:50 onwards and you gonna see how easy it is for WEs to get kills - and that WE is a returning player. He doesn't even know all the secrets.

Someone in the comments below tells him: "I run Sac Stab + Witchbrew since Treachery Assault can build up 2 stacks frenzy (4 if you proc Elixir of Shadow) you can hit up to 8-10k opening out of stealth if you do it right."

So, that guy doesn't even know what he is doing and is still face rolling most of his targets.

If you think that 8-10k in a few seconds and killing before the targets gets up from 3s kd or shortly after is fine then I don't know what you are smoking... the damage is way above every other class. Just a comparison: in the time the WE is able to burn through a full health bar is barely enough to get a 3s cast with set backs off as BW. ONE cast that takes 3s and does 1500ish damage IF it doesn't get disrupted vs 8-10k drops from WE in a few seconds. Not gonna say that it would make sense to start a 3s cast when getting jumped but just to put the power of WEs in relation to BW and what other class can or better say can NOT do.

If a BW were on WE level he would immediately teleport away then nuke the WE with 3000ish hits every 2 seconds. That would make the both equal. Of course it is not the case. The reality is that he doesn't have teleport nor big damage, the WE kills him in a few seconds then leaves the fight with at least 90% health left. That's not a fight, that's a slaughter.

Oh the times ive gone 100-0 in a few seconds from wizards being allowed to freecast in the back

[Avanos]

Are we still crying about this.

[nocturnalguest]

Guys, it's only the WE players themselves defending the class here in the forum.

Outside of this forum they speak more open about how op the WE is. Like ingame or here in the comments of this youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B2yn16hFR4

Look in video at timestamp 20:50 onwards and you gonna see how easy it is for WEs to get kills - and that WE is a returning player. He doesn't even know all the secrets.

Someone in the comments below tells him: "I run Sac Stab + Witchbrew since Treachery Assault can build up 2 stacks frenzy (4 if you proc Elixir of Shadow) you can hit up to 8-10k opening out of stealth if you do it right."

So, that guy doesn't even know what he is doing and is still face rolling most of his targets.

If you think that 8-10k in a few seconds and killing before the targets gets up from 3s kd or shortly after is fine then I don't know what you are smoking... the damage is way above every other class. Just a comparison: in the time the WE is able to burn through a full health bar is barely enough to get a 3s cast with set backs off as BW. ONE cast that takes 3s and does 1500ish damage IF it doesn't get disrupted vs 8-10k drops from WE in a few seconds. Not gonna say that it would make sense to start a 3s cast when getting jumped but just to put the power of WEs in relation to BW and what other class can or better say can NOT do.

If a BW were on WE level he would immediately teleport away then nuke the WE with 3000ish hits every 2 seconds. That would make the both equal. Of course it is not the case. The reality is that he doesn't have teleport nor big damage, the WE kills him in a few seconds then leaves the fight with at least 90% health left. That's not a fight, that's a slaughter.

Lumpi, the way you word and put it is the same thing as you putting blame on people having a discussion and "defending" WE.

No doubt that its hardest match up for BW, but BW solo roaming is most hardcore thing by default. Just recently has been discussed in sorc thread viewtopic.php?p=593977#p593977
Yes, balance has changed, yes, its now even harder for BW, but fundamental basics are still very same. You should roam in proper spec, carefully, expect to be jumped by WE(s), take none popular routes, keep double jump in mind, never stop kiting.

You make it sound like WE is invincible. Thats simply not true. Last i briefly check it was like this
viewtopic.php?t=59520&start=20#p584265
and this (dont mind the salt, i got really triggered, also somehow images are missing ill post some here)
viewtopic.php?t=59520&start=30#p584755






This is the real picture. Nothing has changed. Even double jump, whatever. WE dies. I didnt go deep into WE vs WL match ups, it way too much depends on specs, but im almost certain properly specced (for roaming/duels) WL beats WE with ~60+/~40- chances.
WE goes glass -> dies to deftards soloers, WE goes def -> dies to bursty/kitters soloers who can burn its ~9k hp (like engi or SW, yes its harder for them, but 45ft is somewhat manageable, i could understand all the tears if it would be 65ft). Its not absolute best solo roaming class and its definitely not OP in group play, i would say for group play mara is way more scary. Like it was already discussed in all those "NErfFFFF ReGGGEEEENENNNNENEN NOOWWWWW!!!!!1" threads, everyone with decent enough experience has told all the forecasts for current situation - dps healers are reigning supreme.

You certainly can do math much better then me, so go figure.

The only real topic is whats Sanctific is talking about. But we also already had whole this discussion in details. Its here viewtopic.php?p=587395#p587395
Definitely worth to keep such discussion everywhere (discord, forum, whatever).

saupreusse also had some good ideas already, sadly he probably havent had time for suggestion post (viewtopic.php?p=591264#p591264)

tl;dr whole this thread - "skill issue", "another solo thread"

[Avanos]

Guys, it's only the WE players themselves defending the class here in the forum.

Outside of this forum they speak more open about how op the WE is. Like ingame or here in the comments of this youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B2yn16hFR4

Look in video at timestamp 20:50 onwards and you gonna see how easy it is for WEs to get kills - and that WE is a returning player. He doesn't even know all the secrets.

Someone in the comments below tells him: "I run Sac Stab + Witchbrew since Treachery Assault can build up 2 stacks frenzy (4 if you proc Elixir of Shadow) you can hit up to 8-10k opening out of stealth if you do it right."

So, that guy doesn't even know what he is doing and is still face rolling most of his targets.

If you think that 8-10k in a few seconds and killing before the targets gets up from 3s kd or shortly after is fine then I don't know what you are smoking... the damage is way above every other class. Just a comparison: in the time the WE is able to burn through a full health bar is barely enough to get a 3s cast with set backs off as BW. ONE cast that takes 3s and does 1500ish damage IF it doesn't get disrupted vs 8-10k drops from WE in a few seconds. Not gonna say that it would make sense to start a 3s cast when getting jumped but just to put the power of WEs in relation to BW and what other class can or better say can NOT do.

If a BW were on WE level he would immediately teleport away then nuke the WE with 3000ish hits every 2 seconds. That would make the both equal. Of course it is not the case. The reality is that he doesn't have teleport nor big damage, the WE kills him in a few seconds then leaves the fight with at least 90% health left. That's not a fight, that's a slaughter.

Lumpi, the way you word and put it is the same thing as you putting blame on people having a discussion and "defending" WE.

No doubt that its hardest match up for BW, but BW solo roaming is most hardcore thing by default. Just recently has been discussed in sorc thread viewtopic.php?p=593977#p593977
Yes, balance has changed, yes, its now even harder for BW, but fundamental basics are still very same. You should roam in proper spec, carefully, expect to be jumped by WE(s), take none popular routes, keep double jump in mind, never stop kiting.

You make it sound like WE is invincible. Thats simply not true. Last i briefly check it was like this
viewtopic.php?t=59520&start=20#p584265
and this (dont mind the salt, i got really triggered, also somehow images are missing ill post some here)
viewtopic.php?t=59520&start=30#p584755






This is the real picture. Nothing has changed. Even double jump, whatever. WE dies. I didnt go deep into WE vs WL match ups, it way too much depends on specs, but im almost certain properly specced (for roaming/duels) WL beats WE with ~60+/~40- chances.
WE goes glass -> dies to deftards soloers, WE goes def -> dies to bursty/kitters soloers who can burn its ~9k hp (like engi or SW, yes its harder for them, but 45ft is somewhat manageable, i could understand all the tears if it would be 65ft). Its not absolute best solo roaming class and its definitely not OP in group play, i would say for group play mara is way more scary. Like it was already discussed in all those "NErfFFFF ReGGGEEEENENNNNENEN NOOWWWWW!!!!!1" threads, everyone with decent enough experience has told all the forecasts for current situation - dps healers are reigning supreme.

You certainly can do math much better then me, so go figure.

The only real topic is whats Sanctific is talking about. But we also already had whole this discussion in details. Its here viewtopic.php?p=587395#p587395
Definitely worth to keep such discussion everywhere (discord, forum, whatever).

saupreusse also had some good ideas already, sadly he probably havent had time for suggestion post (viewtopic.php?p=591264#p591264)

tl;dr whole this thread - "skill issue", "another solo thread"

I think what you've written is probably the most accurate summary in this entire thread.

Ironically, even your TL;DR is likely too much reading and too much brainpower for the average player to process.

You basically laid out the same reality that shows up every single time these discussions happen:

Stealth classes can be countered.
Positioning matters.
Route selection matters.
Spec choices matter.
Awareness matters.
Matchups matter.
Group composition matters.

Somehow that gets translated into "WE/WH is immortal and can never die."

The screenshots are the funniest part. Every balance thread acts like Witch Elves are untouchable gods, then actual gameplay examples shows them exploding the moment they run into a bad matchup, get caught, overextend, or meet someone who understands the class.

The real issue is that people don't like being punished for mistakes. They want the freedom to roam wherever they want, however they want, without adapting their build or playstyle, and they especially don't want to hear that maybe the stealth assassin class is supposed to be dangerous when you're alone.

Your TL;DR of "skill issue" and "another solo thread" honestly summarizes 90% of these discussions.

At this point I fully expect the next balance proposal to be:

"Remove WE and WH because learning how to counter them requires reading more than two forum posts and pressing more than three buttons."

That would finally solve the problem.

[borc1]

if stealth classes were to be removed the game would immediatly improve. dont care about your cope