[Review] [KOTBS] Glory Tree

[Hugatsaga]

For those asking for evicence, I would like to know what kind of evidence would actually satisfy you? Its really hard to post group fight video and point out how other side won specifically because of +15% healing.

If you take everything order and destro tanks have into balance discussion it soon turns into incomrehensible mess. Sometimes you just have to use logic and bottom line here is that other side gets +15% healing while other side doesnt.

[zumos2]

For those asking for evicence, I would like to know what kind of evidence would actually satisfy you? Its really hard to post group fight video and point out how other side won specifically because of +15% healing.

If you take everything order and destro tanks have into balance discussion it soon turns into incomrehensible mess. Sometimes you just have to use logic and bottom line here is that other side gets +15% healing while other side doesnt.

You can at least argue why you believe Order is stronger than Destruction. And the two realms are not exactly mirrored, so there are abilities that one realm has and the other has not. The game has to be balanced with this in mind and therefore you cannot simply say Order has FM, Destro doesn't, so it must be OP and nerfed/removed.

[dansari]

Sometimes you just have to use logic and bottom line here is that other side gets +15% healing while other side doesnt.

Yeah that doesn't really hold much water either. One side gets auto detaunts and movement speed increasers and the other doesn't. If we base our logic on that principal, we will never get anywhere.

[szejoza]

*removed cause of obvious bias*

[Cimba]

I see what you're saying, but I also think that you can have a discussion about a specific tactic or ability (less so) that is so good that everyone runs it (possibly overperforming), or in this instance where I think most people agree FM is too good for the investment taken to get it.

Last time I checked we didn't run focus mending when doing scenarios. The reason is also quite simple. As long as your mdps is guarded he is basically unkillable. Making him 15% more unkillable doesnt give you anything. It only gets dangarous when tanks are punted and/or healer are staggered. But at that point you throw out morale heals/pots which aren't effected by it anyway so again no net benefit.

In addition the aura Stay Focused! is total **** for everyone expect maybe the guys how get punched a lot, which are typically not the people who need it. By running To Glory instead the entire group and most importantly the healer profit from the AP gain. In addition the AP drain is really annoying for enemy dps. A dps who is strapped for AP cant develop his full damage potential. Damage that isn't done doesnt need to be healed.

So I guess my point is: The current game play resolves around burst damage in combination with guard punts or morale dumps. The tactic does not affect morale dumps. And players are still not healable without guard even with the tactic.

I guess you could make a case when facing superior numbers that the extra 15% might make a difference. But if thats the baseline of balance there is a lot of work to do.

[Penril]

Let me just say that "it isn't even that good; we don't run it" is not a great argument. If anything, it makes me think that if no one runs it then no one will care if it gets moved up.

An argument that I would consider at least decent would be, i don't know, something like:

- new Crippling Strikes stacking 10% crit with Crimson Death increased Destro's burst, so FM can be nice to counter that setup.
- New WAAAGH increased all of Destro's AA haste, increasing their sustained damage overall so FM can be nice to counter it.
- etc.

Are those correct? Maybe. Maybe not. But they are way better than:

- you are just jealous
- stop whining
- yeah well RUN AWAY
- we don't even use FM lol
- etc.

[peterthepan3]

Personally, I see the lack of FM usage in smallscale groups as an indicator of it not overperforming as some people purport it to be. As of yet, I am yet to see a convincing argument as to how it is overperforming, hence why I am opposed to nerfing +% heal component - especially if it is done just for the sake of it.

I think the burden of proof is on the OP, and that they ought to post findings and proofs of it overperforming - as opposed to relying on the sentiment that the KOTBS, by default, is overperforming in every aspect.

[Aurandilaz]

Theory:
Original game devs had some mysterious plan of giving Order various buffs, that would allow them to persevere against the hordes of Destruction (many new players chose Destro first at game launch, so the fear of original Devs that players picked badass and mean looking chars in greater numbers was somewhat justified). Well obviously this resulted in the infamous balance problems that live servers suffered until the last ones were closed down.
Where does FM fit in with Order having buffs to survive massive numbers of Destro? Well obviously in organized warband play. What happens in organized warband play that justifies knight running Fm? Destro having AoE healdebuffs from various sources and other debuffs.
There is DoK AoE healdebuff, currently underused in organized warband gameplay because DoK in general has no space in organized bombing.
There is Zealot AoE healdebuff, somewhat underused but quite deadly in right hands.
There is Squig Bad Gas, when landed on Order healer line, they get 5 sec increased CD on all their heals, effectively shutting down their healing output with their warband beginning to crumble as result.
There is Witch Elf, that may use healdebuff Kiss and hit OnYourKnees for 9 target AoE, with minor RNG chance of debuffing healers. (WH being more reliable obviously when landing AoE healdebuff Bullets, but WE still being able to cause quite the mischief)
Then there is Chosen who can either run -25% heal Aura on enemies, or other Aura to make their spells build slower.
Then we get to Marauder, who are basically debuffing the Order heal lines to such extent that they are more or less crippled. Insane Whispers, and aoe cast-interrupt.
Then there is also Blorc AoE Disorient, further making casting heals a challenge.


Now obviously, after all that is thrown at an Order wb, whether a Kotbs runs +15% heal aura or not, it barely matters.
Destruction has vast array of tools to counter Order healing outputs, despite them having various buffs at their arsenal including Rp, AM and WP various self/party healbuffs. It boils down to whether Destro can access the Order healline and debuff them to oblivion, or whether not, in which case all the aformention Orderside healbuffs make them very much potent.

In fact, I would probably counterpropose moving the FM tactic up, but even increasing its value to 20%, reflecting that its then a 11pt tactic that is extremely valuable for proper warband gameplay when facing a Destro wb that knows what its doing. In farming pugs, FM is overkill, and as said, in 6manning its relatively minor and mostly ignored as the mandatory teambackbone-Knight is busy running other tactics and maybe other auras.

And whoever accused of "Destro players" wanting Knight nerfs, I have a semi-well geared rr48 Knight that I try to play weekly.

[Penril]

Aurandilaz, that is the first decent argument i have seen in this thread (regardless of whether i agree with it or not). Thanks, that's what people should be trying to do here.

[Acidic]

The problem of the argumentation of destro gets to order healing line is that of positioning.
Against pug y not significant issue but against wb that are half organized the argument that the healers are debuffed does not hold so true.
The healers are not standing in a blob waiting to be debuffed. The healers are either spread , hiding behind tank wall (especially keep) or have some cc folk around them with mega punt, range knock down ......
So the just get to healers sounds simple enough typically the time this tactic is used is especially at bottle necks where the counters are next to zero