WE/WH Balance Proposals (looking for feedback before submission)

[Sulorie]

You always come in with complaints and never offer anything constructive. Try giving it a go.

Don't take it personal, I just tell you, why it is a bad idea and I hoped ppl in general would try to "break/exploit" their own suggestions first before posting them.

Which I addressed in the second part of the post you quoted. Which you seemed to ignore. Again try being constructive once in a while.

This you call addressing?

Your job isn't to kill that healer solo, for several reasons it shouldn't be possible to kill a healer of similar rank/gear solo.
The healer has to focus on himself and can't heal his team as good as before, this is the effect of you attacking a healer solo.
Ambush doesn't means you pop alone on a single target. When someone else gets the attention and is detaunted, you can use stealth and add your dmg to the target and kill it. If they have seen you before, they might played differently to defend against 2 targets, not only one.
This assassin type play style can still be used against targets with less defensive skill sets and heals.
I have the impression that this thread is full of solo WE players, which can be seen on any scenario backline, where they try to kill a healer and fail miserably, when the enemy team responds. It is not your job to kill enemy targets, when you are alone and the enemy team is all around.

[teiloh]

I think all here want to find something absolutely "unique" for WE/WH. Something that give a reasons to take those classes to wb. Terror debuff meets above condision.

My experience told me that it would be much better in small scale fight (like ranked SC) than in wb. If chars starts dropping down in wb fight it is usually finish. Release and regroup. Without a terror. But in environment where inability to res took 20% of power from your team... I would like to see that tied to any tactics. Looks powerful...

Back to wb play... Maybe some form of disoriented tied to Broad severing/Sweeping razor if increasing number of targets is not desired solution?

Agreed that it would be unique and it's a very cool idea, but imo it would be oppressive because:

1. It actively prevents players from playing the game, at no fault of their own. People already hate being CCed, a 30s terror debuff for example would be a forced release in most situations.
2. It directly cancels several abilities of other classes, and this is usually frustrating for the receiving end, while not very rewarding for the WE/WH player unless they just like trolling people - like me. I would think of it like Shatter Confidence vs. Shaman. While it didn't completely invalidate the class, it does make a class feel "persecuted" in a way that's aggravating and not an enjoyable challenge.
3. It adds another thing for healers to micromanage, and another hassle for rezzing - on top of knowing if you have a good rez and whether or not someone else is already rezzing them, you have to check them for rez blocker.
4. Dying is already frustrating enough, having a terror block esp in ORvR would be really painful.
5. There's a chance here with a WE/WH rework to enhance the overall game at all levels. While Terror is a really cool idea it does not address any core gameplay or balance issues, imo.

While it is probably a lot less flashy, I think a review of the core abilities/tactics/morales of these classes (WH/WE) would be be a biggest step toward balancing them.

[teiloh]

An idea I had that I think might serve as an example of something that's unique that satisfies several game balance objectives:

On all WH/WE openers, you drop a cloud of smoke at your feet, covering a 30 foot area. This generates 3 "dummy" targets in the area which have 100% mitigation and cannot be targeted, but soak up AOE target cap as if they were players, lasting 15 seconds.

In addition, the smoke clings to you, simultaneously generating a similar effect as a 10 foot aura around the WE/WH that counts for 1 additional target.

This ability wouldn't really affect a WE/WH ability to solo gank which is already pretty strong, it would address the meta (mass AOE) without impacting the rest of the game, and gives WE/WH a unique role to play in larger scale.

[jokerspsycho]

Don't take it personal, I just tell you, why it is a bad idea and I hoped ppl in general would try to "break/exploit" their own suggestions first before posting them.

Which I addressed in the second part of the post you quoted. Which you seemed to ignore. Again try being constructive once in a while.

I have the impression that this thread is full of solo WE players, which can be seen on any scenario backline, where they try to kill a healer and fail miserably, when the enemy team responds. It is not your job to kill enemy targets, when you are alone and the enemy team is all around.

Again i already addressed the fact about how a TEAM could easily counter it. If you are able to kill a healer, in the back linke, even with a detaunt dispell, their team isnt doing their job. Tank can tab and challenge, you can be stunned, disarmed, knocked back, staggered, target can be gaurded. It sounds like you are the only only assuming solo gameplay.

Again what is your suggestion for helping WE/WH because it is a general consensus they do need help and War and other mods dont have issues coming in and saying "no this is working as intended and it will not be changed" which they havent so again, as i said before, it is the jobs of those who play the class to give ideas of which the devs can build off of. If they think WE/WH is completely fine they should come in here and say so and i can go back to my MSH which make all order players cry from what ive read on the forums.

Edit: lets not forget, most healer classes have an aoe detaunt that lasts the same duration as the cast so hopefully you moved really fast because you might have a few seconds after the dk to kill the defensivly speced healer who is likely harder the burst than any other mdps or rdps. again, in a team setting this change wouldnt help .

[teiloh]

Again i already addressed the fact about how a TEAM could easily counter it. If you are able to kill a healer, in the back linke, even with a detaunt dispell, their team isnt doing their job. Tank can tab and challenge, you can be stunned, disarmed, knocked back, staggered, target can be gaurded. It sounds like you are the only only assuming solo gameplay.

Again what is your suggestion for helping WE/WH because it is a general consensus they do need help and War and other mods dont have issues coming in and saying "no this is working as intended and it will not be changed" which they havent so again, as i said before, it is the jobs of those who play the class to give ideas of which the devs can build off of. If they think WE/WH is completely fine they should come in here and say so and i can go back to my MSH which make all order players cry from what ive read on the forums.

The idea of detaunt ignore is cool imo, but a 100% ignore would be very strong to the point where it'd be an always-on tactic against all decent groups. It would also disproportionately impact the classes' primary targets which it is arguably (and I may be completely wrong on this) very strong against. Overall the concept I think is good, but the numbers could be tweaked so they're more in line with other MDPS tactics. Maybe an effect that reduces all taunts/detaunts by 15 percentage points? -35% vs -50% from detaunt, -15% from challenge, +15% from taunt vs +30%, etc.

[jokerspsycho]

Again i already addressed the fact about how a TEAM could easily counter it. If you are able to kill a healer, in the back linke, even with a detaunt dispell, their team isnt doing their job. Tank can tab and challenge, you can be stunned, disarmed, knocked back, staggered, target can be gaurded. It sounds like you are the only only assuming solo gameplay.

Again what is your suggestion for helping WE/WH because it is a general consensus they do need help and War and other mods dont have issues coming in and saying "no this is working as intended and it will not be changed" which they havent so again, as i said before, it is the jobs of those who play the class to give ideas of which the devs can build off of. If they think WE/WH is completely fine they should come in here and say so and i can go back to my MSH which make all order players cry from what ive read on the forums.

The idea of detaunt ignore is cool imo, but a 100% ignore would be very strong to the point where it'd be an always-on tactic against all decent groups. It would also disproportionately impact the classes' primary targets which it is arguably (and I may be completely wrong on this) very strong against. Overall the concept I think is good, but the numbers could be tweaked so they're more in line with other MDPS tactics. Maybe an effect that reduces all taunts/detaunts by 15 percentage points? -35% vs -50% from detaunt, -15% from challenge, +15% from taunt vs +30%, etc.

I was actually thinking thr opposite and being good v pugs since diving a healer would likely get u killed, bc crit % nerf and we/wh not doing that much burst to be fair. Vs an organized team u will get your opener then likely turned or it taunted.

But that's what I'm looking for, discussion and suggestions.

I am pretty adamant on Sac stab and exit wound being execute skills. Makes no sense to me why neither had an execute skill. Think stealth should be 30/10 as well but iirc I saw a dev say they were ok with it as is in some buried post. Not sure, but thr classes have much more issues than that to sort out.

Sulorie, do you think we/wh is fine as is? Why should you ever bring one, in small scale where everyone says we/wh belong, over a asw, wl, slayer, choppa, smh, mara, dps dok?

Edit: again, an icd of 10/15s would be included so you dont just ignore ALL detaunts, taunts, challenges, whatever. Would allow you to do well in unorganized pvp. If a we/wh could blow your healer up in 3s, your healer isnt well geared, if he gets 8-10s up time (even ignoring the healer detaunt) the healer didnt use any punt, stagger, the other healer didnt heal him AT ALL, the dps and tanks ignored you. Basically your team sucked and if that's your premade, better talk to them.

[teiloh]

I am pretty adamant on Sac stab and exit wound being execute skills. Makes no sense to me why neither had an execute skill. Think stealth should be 30/10 as well but iirc I saw a dev say they were ok with it as is in some buried post. Not sure, but thr classes have much more issues than that to sort out.

That's a great idea imo and fits the theme very well.

[sighy]

Spoiler:

I think all here want to find something absolutely "unique" for WE/WH. Something that give a reasons to take those classes to wb. Terror debuff meets above condision.

My experience told me that it would be much better in small scale fight (like ranked SC) than in wb. If chars starts dropping down in wb fight it is usually finish. Release and regroup. Without a terror. But in environment where inability to res took 20% of power from your team... I would like to see that tied to any tactics. Looks powerful...

Back to wb play... Maybe some form of disoriented tied to Broad severing/Sweeping razor if increasing number of targets is not desired solution?

Agreed that it would be unique and it's a very cool idea, but imo it would be oppressive because:

1. It actively prevents players from playing the game, at no fault of their own. People already hate being CCed, a 30s terror debuff for example would be a forced release in most situations.
2. It directly cancels several abilities of other classes, and this is usually frustrating for the receiving end, while not very rewarding for the WE/WH player unless they just like trolling people - like me. I would think of it like Shatter Confidence vs. Shaman. While it didn't completely invalidate the class, it does make a class feel "persecuted" in a way that's aggravating and not an enjoyable challenge.
3. It adds another thing for healers to micromanage, and another hassle for rezzing - on top of knowing if you have a good rez and whether or not someone else is already rezzing them, you have to check them for rez blocker.
4. Dying is already frustrating enough, having a terror block esp in ORvR would be really painful.
5. There's a chance here with a WE/WH rework to enhance the overall game at all levels. While Terror is a really cool idea it does not address any core gameplay or balance issues, imo.

While it is probably a lot less flashy, I think a review of the core abilities/tactics/morales of these classes (WH/WE) would be be a biggest step toward balancing them.

It would solve one of the major issues, which makes single target restrained dps basically pointless. Where in an organised setting all it takes is 2 shamans/ams to make all the single target picks useless due to instant rez. Hell normal rez offers you in the ballpark of 6 gcds to find and kill another target. And we know more single target damage will not solve it, because ASW faces the same damn issue.

But yeah WE/WH will likely need an in depth large scale rework to be considered viable, in organised warband setting, outside of the morales, which mara does better anyway.

[Skald]

I'd like to propose some Inquisition tree changes:

Protection from Heresy:
Whenever you use an Execution, you and your allies will be protected by a barrier that will absorb damage (values below for a maxed out Inquisition tree).
1 Accusation: 200 damage
2 Accusations: 300 damage
3 Accusations: 500 damage
4 Accusations: 700 damage
5 Accusations: 1000 damage

Adds some group utility and makes the tactic actually worth taking.


Replace Full Confession with Holy Flames:
Increases the Burn Heretic! damage by 25%, and each tick has a 50% increased critcal hit chance.

That's only one idea, but anything to make Burn Heretic! more useful would be nice to see. Full Confession really doesn't seem to gel with the rest of the tree.

On that note, what are everyone's thoughts about Seal of Destruction since the Blessed Blade introduction?

[Twohandernoob]

I'd like to propose some Inquisition tree changes:

Protection from Heresy:
Whenever you use an Execution, you and your allies will be protected by a barrier that will absorb damage (values below for a maxed out Inquisition tree).
1 Accusation: 200 damage
2 Accusations: 300 damage
3 Accusations: 500 damage
4 Accusations: 700 damage
5 Accusations: 1000 damage

Adds some group utility and makes the tactic actually worth taking.


Replace Full Confession with Holy Flames:
Increases the Burn Heretic! damage by 25%, and each tick has a 50% increased critcal hit chance.

That's only one idea, but anything to make Burn Heretic! more useful would be nice to see. Full Confession really doesn't seem to gel with the rest of the tree.

On that note, what are everyone's thoughts about Seal of Destruction since the Blessed Blade introduction?

SoD is in a bad place and needs a buff.

It's advantage over blessed blade is that it does not take up a tactic slot and is usable instantly without need to refresh.

However the duration is so short and the major drawback is it puts your sanctified oil and/or shroud on CD. You burn your bridges so to speak for 7 seconds of increased AP. Unless you have a suicidal playstyle it has limited use. I tend to use it when I know I can escape easily, otherwise I keep the vanish to hand.

Giving it a longer duration would make it more tempting to use.