Archmage/Shaman

[ByzantineTime]

It's not comparable! if you play your am/shaman as defensive dps your dps sucks!! period, you can't kill anyone besides perhaps offensive tanks and other dps classes, you won't kill healers, unless they are very squishy and you're lucky. I don't think you even play the class, I think you died to shams/ams and you claim they are OP. it's a gimped class because of flawed class mechanic you are weaker than rest of the classes that is a fact.

The only reason AM/Sham top DPS meters is when they play *Glass Cannon build*, in *Glass Cannon build* you cannot *Heal* at all!!, and your DPS isn't even that good, you don't have any burst as a normal DPS class, play any dps class, and then dps with AM/SHam and you will see how gimped you're. The *only reason* they top DPS CHARTS, because DOTS have a high duration, so they deal damage over time, so what? 1 heal 2 heals and it's countered, yet it shows on the scoreboard, useless numbers.

This is clearly false, as nearly all the things I listed are available to every AM by default. Shamans have an equivalent for most.

In other words, even a purely DPS specced AM has access to most of these abilities, greatly improving their survivability far beyond what most DPS classes get, at no significant trade-off.



False. I actually play AM, but not Shaman.

so you are full glass cannon am build, you can't heal you have -40% heal !!! from two tactics, divine fury + middle tree tactic, what survavibility do you have? slow?? shield?? okay so what? you're still a useless DPS, you have dots and 1 burst spell that has cooldown t hat's it, compared t o any real DPS class this is completely useless, why are you not toping city charts then? you have 0 AOE too, you can't compare this DPS to a real DPS class, play WL, Play slayer, BW, SW and see what is real normal DPS and not "glass cannon AM is OP", cause it's not, you get shield so what??, engineer with healing KEG much better than a DPS "GC" AM trust me.

If you think you are OP you are very new in this game, you are also gimped because of broken class mechanic, take a look at other classes even some that I mentioned above you will understand how weak you're, play a DPS class and see for yourself.

[Caduceus]

1. so you are full glass cannon am build, you can't heal you have -40% heal !!! from two tactics, divine fury + middle tree tactic, what survavibility do you have? slow?? shield?? okay so what? you're still a useless DPS, you have dots and 1 burst spell that has cooldown t hat's it, compared t o any real DPS class this is completely useless, 2. why are you not toping city charts then? you have 0 AOE too, you can't compare this DPS to a real DPS class, play WL, Play slayer, BW, SW and see what is real normal DPS and not "glass cannon AM is OP", cause it's not, you get shield so what??, 3. engineer with healing KEG much better than a DPS "GC" AM trust me.

4. If you think you are OP you are very new in this game, you are also gimped because of broken class mechanic, take a look at other classes even some that I mentioned above you will understand how weak you're, play a DPS class and see for yourself.

This comment is just all over the place, but I'll take it apart.

1. In the context of my post, the -40% would only apply to Lambent Aura, and that would still constitute 1k of health that is practically free and applicable whenever. Transfer Force only suffers from Khaine's Touch, turning a ~3k heal to a 2.4k heal, constituting still a delta of 4.4k, which I think still isn't beaten by any other ability in the game, possibly even including morales.

2. Because city charts are generally topped by AoE damage dealers, which the AM isn't for the most part. However, AoE and damage are only a small part of what constitutes effectiveness in cities.

3. Going by base numbers, Keg has a 2 second cast-time, is stationary, has a 15 second cooldown and heals for 1120. Furthermore, it is locked in a skill tree. Lambent Aura, even under the effects of Khaine's Touch and Divine Fury heals 1020. Keg so much better? I don't think so. Not in small-scale anyway.

4. Another back-handed attempt to discredit me. Engage with my arguments or don't engage at all.

[ByzantineTime]

1. so you are full glass cannon am build, you can't heal you have -40% heal !!! from two tactics, divine fury + middle tree tactic, what survavibility do you have? slow?? shield?? okay so what? you're still a useless DPS, you have dots and 1 burst spell that has cooldown t hat's it, compared t o any real DPS class this is completely useless, 2. why are you not toping city charts then? you have 0 AOE too, you can't compare this DPS to a real DPS class, play WL, Play slayer, BW, SW and see what is real normal DPS and not "glass cannon AM is OP", cause it's not, you get shield so what??, 3. engineer with healing KEG much better than a DPS "GC" AM trust me.

4. If you think you are OP you are very new in this game, you are also gimped because of broken class mechanic, take a look at other classes even some that I mentioned above you will understand how weak you're, play a DPS class and see for yourself.

This comment is just all over the place, but I'll take it apart.

1. In the context of my post, the -40% would only apply to Lambent Aura, and that would still constitute 1k of health that is practically free and applicable whenever. Transfer Force only suffers from Khaine's Touch, turning a ~3k heal to a 2.4k heal, constituting still a delta of 4.4k, which I think still isn't beaten by any other ability in the game, possibly even including morales.

2. Because city charts are generally topped by AoE damage dealers, which the AM isn't for the most part. However, AoE and damage are only a small part of what constitutes effectiveness in cities.

3. Going by base numbers, Keg has a 2 second cast-time, is stationary, has a 15 second cooldown and heals for 1120. Furthermore, it is locked in a skill tree. Lambent Aura, even under the effects of Khaine's Touch and Divine Fury heals 1020. Keg so much better? I don't think so. Not in small-scale anyway.

4. Another back-handed attempt to discredit me. Engage with my arguments or don't engage at all.

1) Lambent Aura -> 1k health over 15 sec -> 66HP per sec claps so broken!!!

2)2.4k HEAL in case it crits yadda yadda lets go with your math, 2.4k heal over 24 sec -> 100 hp per sec -> wow so broken, you're such a strong healer!!!

wow those heals in glass cannon build are so OP and Broken I am not Sure how anyone can OVER COME THIS!!
NO SINGLE CLASS COMES CLOSE TO THIS according to you hahaha

And to your city point, yeah no **** mate, you have no AOE, and nothing else, just 4 dots and 1 burst with a big cooldown with the tactic, that every "gc am" has, it's complete crap dps, the numbers come only from spamming the dots and dealing overtime damage, which is completely useless by being countered from 1-2 hots. As I said and I say again, play a real DPS class and you will see the difference why u are so useless as dps.

KEG engineer from my experience as a shaman, is much much much stronger than any "glass cannon am dpsers" it heals and does much more damage, period. You clearly never fought against one on order side, so I'm telling you this from experience.

4) No one is trying to discredit you personally, I have nothing against you personally, I'm just saying you are way off, probably lack of knowledge + experience saying ams/shamans broken, people that say it are just ignorant that is a fact. This Class is In Fact weak right now because of the broken mechanic, try to out heal a WP anywhere good luck with that, even if you have BIS gear and that WP with blue weapons he'll out heal you.

[Caduceus]

1) Lambent Aura -> 1k health over 15 sec -> 66HP per sec claps so broken!!!

2)2.4k HEAL in case it crits yadda yadda lets go with your math, 2.4k heal over 24 sec -> 100 hp per sec -> wow so broken, you're such a strong healer!!!

wow those heals in glass cannon build are so OP and Broken I am not Sure how anyone can OVER COME THIS!!
NO SINGLE CLASS COMES CLOSE TO THIS according to you hahaha

More snide comments without substance.

Lets put your own numbers into perspective then.

For 45 renown points you can buy 3 ranks of Regeneration. How much health regeneration does this 45 renown point investment give you? 28 HP per second.

How does 66 HP per second sound now? And 100 HP per second?

~Fin.

And to your city point, yeah no **** mate, you have no AOE, and nothing else, just 4 dots and 1 burst with a big cooldown with the tactic, that every "gc am" has, it's complete crap dps, the numbers come only from spamming the dots and dealing overtime damage, which is completely useless by being countered from 1-2 hots. As I said and I say again, play a real DPS class and you will see the difference why u are so useless as dps.

Numbers aren't everything. The truth is most AoE damage shows up very fancy on damage boards, but in reality a lot of that damage tends to be fluff. If you wish to ignore the value of ST burst then it says more about your experience than about mine.

Anyway, I don't know what you thought my point was, but I never sought to make the point that DPS AM was good in city, so; moot point.

KEG engineer from my experience as a shaman, is much much much stronger than any "glass cannon am dpsers" it heals and does much more damage, period. You clearly never fought against one on order side, so I'm telling you this from experience.

That must be happening in your imagination then, because I gave you the numbers and they don't back up what you're saying.

You also have quite an atittude for someone who brings so little substance to the table.

4) No one is trying to discredit you personally, I have nothing against you personally, I'm just saying you are way off, probably lack of knowledge + experience saying ams/shamans broken, people that say it are just ignorant that is a fact. This Class is In Fact weak right now because of the broken mechanic, try to out heal a WP anywhere good luck with that, even if you have BIS gear and that WP with blue weapons he'll out heal you.

First off, I've engaged with you in a serious manner, and you've thrown mud in return, so make no pretensions.

Second, you've consistently ignored the fact that my arguments about AM/Shaman strengths are aimed at small-scale specifically. So I don't know who you are arguing with here. It's not me.

[Bozzax]

@Cad

Since you have taken up the judge and moderator role

What classes do you play above rr70 and above vanq?

[Caduceus]

@Cad

Since you have taken up the judge and moderator role

What classes do you play above rr70 and above vanq?

SM, SW, AM, KotBS and Sorc.

Also have Magus and Engi at CR40.

I normally would not mention it, because I don't think it makes my arguments any worse or better, but since you asked, and since apparently there is some doubt about my experience level...

[Bozzax]

My personal view is that

1. the sham/Am mechanic is the most fun mech in game also the most complex.

2. AM is not weaker then Shmy in any way when you util all tools (Rioz mode)

3. AM and Shmy heal spec needs some love and one group hot would do the trick

4. 1v1 they are strong yes

[Caduceus]

My personal view is that

1. the sham/Am mechanic is the most fun mech in game also the most complex.

2. AM is not weaker then Shmy in any way when you util all tools (Rioz mode)

3. AM and Shmy heal spec needs some love and one group hot would do the trick

4. 1v1 they are strong yes

I would probably agree on all points, though I don't think AM ST healing should be underestimated. Just like damage numbers in city don't tell the whole story, neither do healing numbers. Also insta-rez is worth taking into consideration, and also Mistress of the Marsh.

The mechanic has the potential to be very interesting, but I don't think that's how it works out in practice.

[teiloh]

A lot of classes are quite good at dropping dots and just walking away. It's sort of a niche for solo AM/Sham, but others are capable of doing it as well.

I'd prefer to see the AM DPS toolkit reworked a bit to make it more versatile.

[teiloh]

For the mechanic:

How about having both sides of the mechanic build simultaneously? Keeping Force/Tranq and Gork/Mork would provide a minor passive buff to Dmg/Healing respectively, and certain abilities would be keyed to spend the opposite resource for bonuses (same or similar as today).

Some would the same as before:
Cleanse could build 1 heal point, and spend 1 damage point for lower GCD.

Some would give more points than spend:
Laser would spend 1 heal point, but build 2 damage points.

Some only give points:
Debuff, +1 heal and +1 damage

Some dump a number of points up to X for stacking benefits:
Rez casts 40% faster per point, up to 3.


Had a draft proposal here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=37900